COLUMBUS, Ohio -- On this Monday Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis begin to unveil their rankings of the 10 most valuable Buckeyes to Ohio State football’s 2024 season.
This podcast covers the play🦩ers who just missed the top 10, plus Nos. 🦩10 through six. The top five will be discussed on Tuesday.
Players and coaches are combined in this ranking, and it’s not a best-of list. It’s value. It’s🌞 importance🐎.
Stephen, Nathan, Andrew and the Ohio State text subscribers each ranked their top 20 Buckeyes, and the lists were then combined to ra🔯nk this top 10.
Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.
Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Stephen Means (00:22.207)
Welcome back to book I talk. I’m Stephen Means. That’s Nathan Baird and that’s📖 Andrew Gillis. And this is going to be a fun one. At least I think so. We are ranking the value of people associated with the Ohio State football program. I told Nathan and Andrew and I tol♔d our Texers 614 -350 -3315 to rank.
Just people, it could be a coach, it could be a player. I said, hey, man, if ♔you want to do a strength and conditioning staff member, you can do that as well. If you want to pick Kailos and nutrition and nutrition, you can do that as well. Everything was on the table as long as they were already associated with the program, which, of course, eliminates anybody who’s committed. They have to be associated with the p🎀rogram already in the program going into the twenty twenty four season. The most valuable people to Ohio State’s chances of winning a national championship in twenty twenty four.
It was a lot of math. So what I did was I had Nathan and Andrew and I, we all sent our top 20s to get a consensus. And then with the textures, we just had them send top fives because there’s a lot of textures. We love you guys. There’s a lot of you guys. So between those lists, we got a consensus. I came up with this formula that♊ I’m not going to spare you guys with the details work with, but it worked. We actually got a really good formula. 30 different people got a vote between.
Us three and the Texers plus three other people that I just want🅰 to say off the top of the hand just because I thought they were funny Nathan RJ day gotꦉ a vote as a just keep the quarterback morale up Respect to that and then the bag man from the NIL got a vote So that’s yeah. Shout out to the bag men listen and then this one’s just fun just because first of all, it’s not following directions but from the 586 I loved it because you didn’t follow directions time for Michigan, but I
Oh no.
Stephen Means (02:08.191)
The reason you didn’t follow directions, I can respec🍌t it 100%. He put number one, Nick Saban, he’s not within the program, he puts in quotes, but hear me out. If he had not retired, is the whole field odds not lower to win the Natty if he’s still around? Secondly, he would ꦍnot have given us Caleb Downs if he was still coaching. I will die on this hill. So I do respect that. The domino effect of.
Nick Saban retiring, offering some people that we’re going to talk about on that list. That🔴’s worth mentioning, even if it’s not necessarily in the rꦚules. So I respect them for doing that. So those are the three random ones. Before we get into our official top 10, because that’s what we’re going to do here. We’re going to do six through 10 on the Monday pod and the Tuesday pod. We’re going to do one through five. Here are some people who just missed the official list. And who had the highest vote for them. So we can talk about that a little bit.
Josh Simmons right off the list, he’s at number 12, which off the bat tells you there’s a couple of people who tied in the top 10. Josh Sim🐷mons right off the bat, he’s number 12. Andrew, you had him the highest of all of us between us three and the Texers. You had him at six. Why six for Jo🍒sh Simmons, Ohio State’s left tackle?
Yeah, I think the, I mean, you need to have a good tackle situation🦋. Um, and I think Josh Simmons is really valuable going into this year. Um, because not just maybe what I think he can be. I think you, we, we saw at the beginning of the year, how bad it can look. Um, you know, there were just maybe not physical mistakes, just mental🌸 errors, just missing blocks, penalties.
Like those are the things that hurt teams that are better than pretty much every team that you’re going to play. Um, so we saw that, but I think it’s a value in that the drop off from him to second string, I think is really significant. I think there are some positions on this roster, you know, for example, defensive end where you can say, look, you’re not going to say you’re going to get better or it’s going to be the same if Jack Sawyer gﷺoes down and JT or excuse me, um, and🃏 Kenyatta Jackson comes in the game.
Andrew (04:17.774)
But you’re feeling pretty good about Kenyatta Jackson, right? There’s not anything there that would kind of scare you to a level that it would with the offensive tackle room. And that’s why I think Josh Sim🦋mons’ play is really valuable. I think Ohio State’s offensive line is going ♊to be better than they were a year ago. And I think one of those players, I think maybe the key player to that kind of improvement would be Josh Simmons. I don’t really have any ton of concern about Donovan Jackson playing at left guard, so.
I want to see Josh Simmons improve and I think if he does, I think Ohio State’s offensive line is goiꦛng to be in♏ a really, really solid spot, which is probably all you need.
So Nathan, I think Andrew brings up a pretty good point there because we’re talking about value, right? And if the drop off between the starter and the guy who maybe is his backup is a significant drop off in that situation, that probably does raise your vaꦚlue in a conv𝓀ersation like this. Just when you were formulating your list, how much did that go into how you came up with your top 20 versus maybe some other things you were considering?
You know, I had a list that I was putting together at first and it was maybe with more consideration towards how crucial a player is or how crucial them getting better is or, or something like that. And then when I reread your email that just said the most valuable, I think I made it a little bit more straightforward somewhat. And we’ll talk about so൲me slight.
Mm.
Nathan Baird (05:48.162)
deviations that I made from that, especially at the top of the list, because it’s not just players, obviously, that we’re talking about here. So Simmons was on my list, but I feel like the importance of every position on the offensive line this season, because of what they went through last year, I had them 🧜all kind of clustered together a little bit more than any onꦉe of them moving higher up the list. Because when I look at last season, it’s part of my most valuable
math, and it wasn🍒๊’t like a formula, but just in my own head, was...
where does Ohio State need to be better than last year? Or where does i🙈t need to replace something important that left? And sometimes those bumped people up as opposed to just like who are the purely best players. And no single position on the offensive line, I would argue last year, was necessarily the problem. It was kind of an across the board issue. And so I’m pretty optimistic that...
Josh Simmons actually will have a pretty solid year this year. I think, as I’ve said before, he was a little bit thrown to the wolves last year. The issues that he had last year were he was absorbing the hit for the coaching staff, basically, and in some ways parts of the coaching staff that weren’t even here anymore. So ♌he should be, he was in my top 20, but lower in my top 20, because I focused, when I was thinking about m💧ost valuable, it was like, okay, who are the guys?
who are maybe☂ going to drive them towards a championship, not t💃he guys who have to be good so they aren’t the hole that they trip in trying to win a championship, if that makes sense.
Stephen Means (07:36.575)
I think you and I, in a lot of ways, approached it that way. I think there’s value in that other way as well. You don’t want to lose this dude because now you’re starting someone you’re really not sure of. But I put more value towards guys who’s, it’s almost like holding a car that’s already combusting together versus a guy who’s driving the car. And I think I put guys who are driving that car towards a national championship a littl𝔍e bit higher. A couple other people I wanted to point out before we get into th🌞is list here.
Andrew, there were a couple assistant coaches who got votes, a couple head coach, couple assistant coaches, but only three coaches in total made the consensus top 10. But right off the list, you had Justin Frye. He was fifth on♚ your list. He was 13th overall. He did get two first place votes from our textures as well. So there were some other people who were thinking like you, but.
Why him? Obviously there’s other people, but w✨hy single him out as another assistant coach who’s also not a coordinator who needed to be on this list? I don’t think you’re wrong for this, by the way. This🃏 is wrong.
No, I understand. I’m just laughing because like, we’re gonna get to the consensus list in a minute, but it’s like, hey Andrew, your list was waౠy different than everyone else’s and everyone, you are so different.
To be real with you, it’s honestly not. It’s honestly not. To be, to be, we’re all, all, I think there’s a couple ones where it’s like, man, you’re here,🌠 but you can understand how they got there, but it’s a pretty consensus list. Trust me.
Andrew (09:00.462)
Interesting. Well, yeah, I had Justin Fry fifth. Offensive line is a development position. You are going to hear me say that time and time again for as long as I am employed with Cleveland dot com covering Ohio State football. Offen🍃sive line is a significant position that you have to develop. It is not one of those positions where Jeremiah Smit✃h can show up and hey, you have the best. Maybe you have like the best left tackle on the team and the best left tackle on the Big 10 or something like that. That’s just not the way that this works. Well,
Unless you’re Justin Fry in 2022.
▨Josh Simmons, Nathan mentioned it, kind of got thrown to the wolves a little bit. He showed up and, hey, guess what? You’re now the starting left tackle. You haven’t had a spring practice. You haven’t had a winter conditioning. Coaches actually can’t 🐽even really talk to you until fall camp, so have fun. And that was it. And we saw him get better. Now you need to see that development take place. I mean, you need to see that next step.
Again, Donovan 𒅌Jackson, not really concerned. Even Seth McLaughlin, who did make my list, but Seth McLaughlin, not really concerned. He’s a veteran player. I do think he’s important, but I’m not really concerned there. Luke Montgomery. How’s his development? Like the reason I have Justin Fry over Luke Montgomery is I don’t know necessarily if it’s up to Luke Montgomery right now. I would say that Josh Justin Fry has to do this, right?
Justin Fry has to pull together an offensive line that is better than last year’s version. He has to pull together an offensive line that has improved from 2023 to 2024. And the way that I mapped this out was I originally had some guys, I was like, you know, maybe I should put them𝔉 higher. Maybe I should put some of the players higher. But...
Andrew (10:49.326)
I’m not going to put five offensive linemen ahead of the coach and just say, oh, this guy’s more important than the coach and this guy’s more important than the coach and this guy’s no, I think the coach is all encompassing for this offensive line. And when you map out the team, you need the offensive line to be better than it was a year ago. And I think that if they are, which I do think they will be better than they were a year ago, that either is the praise of a specific coach oܫr to the detriment of a specific coach. So.
I think Justin Fry is very important going into thꩵis season.
So 14 different people got a first place vote between us three and the Texers. And I’ll just name some of them. Julian San got a first place ♒vote, not on the list. Seth McLaughlin got a first place vote, but comes in at tied for 16th. Sওo he’s right off our list. Justin Fry got a couple. And then Denzel Burke got a first place vote. But he’s 14th on our consensus list, Nathan. And I think both of you, both me and you, were probably higher on where Denzel Burke is and probably a little bit more comfortable putting him on a list.
like this. For me, it’s one the play. Obviously, he’s one of the best players on this team. He’s more. I mean, outside of Will Johnson of this is just off the top of my head. If you want to put him in the conversation fo🌠r maybe he’s the second best corner in the Big Ten, I think you can start to have a conversation about that. But then also the intangibles and the fact that we’ve talked about at length.
Thank you.
Stephen Means (12:13.855)
The attitude of this defense feels like it’s Denzel Burke’s attitude and he’s a straight shooter with it. So all of that for me pushed him up to fifth. You didn’t have him necessarily as high as me, but you did have him in your top 10. Little🌜 surprised that he’s maybe not higher on the overall consensus list maybe.
Well, it’s hard, I’ll be interested to see what the consensus list is, because in some ways, it’s hard to pick which single defensive player is theꩲ most important, because it’s such a loaded defense, and I can see guys, I can see people responding to anꩵ exercise like this and saying, well,
Is he more important? Is he more valuable than Davis and Ibn Osin? Are both of them on a list like this? Can you knock them down on the value list because the guys coming up behind them are so talented and look like they’re so ready to contribute. I could hear that sort of the flip side of what you guys were saying about Josh Simmons a couple minutes ago, that there 📖is such depth behind them that you can pull them down a littlಌe bit. So no, I don’t think there’s any individual defensive player.
th✤at it would surprise me to hear that people didn’t have very high simply because in almost every case there’s either someone else right there or it’s covered up by how talented they are at the other 10 spots.
Good. So that’s the list of guys who got first place ༺votes but didn’t make the list. We’re go༺ing to take a quick break here and then we’re going to come back. We’re going to get into our list six through 10 on this Monday pod. Most valuable people to Ohio State’s chances of winning a national championship in 2024 here on Buckeye Talk.
Stephen Means (13:59.135)
Okay, so we did eno😼ugh dancing around it. Let’s get into it. Steven Means, Nathan Baird, Andrew Gillis. This is our official top 10 list of most valuable players, Ohiꦅo State Championship chances in 2024. We did a top 20. I asked our texter 614 -350 -3315 to do a top five. I compiled all of that, came up with this weird formula that worked for me. And I got this top 10 list, top 20 list, but we’re only going to do the top 10, six through 10 on this pod.
one thr📖ough five on the Tuesday pod coming in at number 10, though they only got one first place vote, but his overall score 7 .65. He’s tied with another guy who got two first place votes, who’s also 7 .65, both on offense. Andrew had the highest vote for both of these guys, which is hilarious to me. Josh Fryer aဣnd Devin Brown come in tied at seven. So let’s split this up a little bit. Nathan.
Iꩲ want you to talk about why it was important to have Devin Brown on this list, because you did have him in your top 10. And then, Andrew, you can talk about why you had Josh Frye💃r in your top 10. Nathan, you go first.
Yeah, Brown was in my top nine. I had Friar in my top 20, obviously, but Brown was number nine on my list. Part of it is because I don’t know who’s going to start at quarterback for this team yet. He could still start at quarterback for this team. And even if he doesn’t start on opening day, he could, he is now by virtue of having stayed here through the spring portal window is on this team unt🥀il December at the very least. And if something else happens,
Mm -hmm.
Nathan Baird (15:37.346)
I still think he’s number two right now, as we sit here, May 2nd, 2024. And that may change because if they see something really special in Julian Sain by the time they needed a backup quarterback to be a big part of the team, like there’s gonna be a different conversation potentially a🐈t that point. I guess you could even say there’s potentially a different conversation that if Julian Sain just looks like the best quarterback on the roster at some point, and we’re kind of just imagining things right now, but.
That may not take an injury to put him in the driver’s seat. But as we sit here right now, Devon Brown is no worse than the backup quarterback for a team that is a trying to win a national championship, has this stacked up roster that is set to win a national championship and has a starting quarterback who, if it’s not him, who has a not♏ yet like,
sealed up that job and B, we just don’t know yet what his ceiling is, like how good he will be. Now🅷 he is higher on my list because of just how the spring ended, I guess, and because, well, we’ll talk about that when we come to it, but I still think Brown is top 10 in terms of value because quarterback gets extra value and in these circumstances where we still know whether he is the starter or not, I think,
you have to hedge your bets a little bi🌳t that if he is the starter, then nine where I have him is too low.
So before we move on to Josh Fr🌠yer, just because you had him so high, Andrew, Devin Brown, you had him third on your lis🐓t. Why so high?
Andrew (17:28.078)
Why Devon? Well, so I kind of cheated and I had two a Will Howard to be Devon Brown. So I don’t like I had both of them just kind of right there because I didn’t really know. And I was like, you know, I’m not going to say that one of these guys is more important than the other because frankly, I have no idea what’s going to happen. I put Will Howard at two a because I think he’s going to be the starter, but I can’t be sure. So I mean🧔, you need your quarterback to be good and you need your quarterback to be valuable to the team. And we saw last year.
what maybe can happen if you have a quarterback who maybe can’t elevate the level of a game or level elevate the level of an offense because I’m sure a lot of people we talk I mean somebody made thi♉s comment, you know before where it was, you know, I think we were just standing around it was like what happens if CJ shroud would have stayed well, I’m like, well CJ star would have stayed they would have blitzed through everybody on their schedule. But even if you’d get minimized CJ shroud like even if you get somebody who’s like,
you know, half of like not made on half, but you get what I’m saying. Somebody who’s and a downgrade from him, but an upgrade from a cord. I mea🗹n, you probably beat Michigan and go to the college football playoffs. So yeah, you need your quarterback to play well🉐. You need your quarterback to be good. That’s why I had the quarterback. So.
So I had the quarterbacks a little bit lower on my overall list. And I think part of it is because of what Nathan, you were talking about. We don’t know who the starting quarterba🦋ck is. In fact, I didn’t have Julian Sand on my list at all, but that’s still a possibility. All of this is still on a table in a world where you’ve kept all five starting, all five quarterbacks after the transfer portal. Go check out a pod last week to see the conversation we had about that and why that was so important. And you should view it as a good thing that all five of those guys stayed. But because of that, I don’t think I may be able to
to circle around one guy and put him as high as I want to put him because I thin♑k once they pick a quarterback, whoever it is goes up to like one, two, three or four easily for me. But because it is so wide open and it’s not just two people, it feels like it might be three people in the mix. Even if it’s two plus one right now, I have to consider that while also.
Stephen Means (19:37.631)
I keep going back to that conversation we had last year, Nathan, where it’s like, how good does the quarterback have to be for this team to win? A little bit be𒐪tter than Kyle McCord. I think it’s fine. I don’t know if it has to be CJ Stroud level. So when we’re talking about value, while yes, logic says quarterback’s the most valuable position in any sport. When your team is this loaded and you don’t need a superhero at quarterback.
it can push guys down. So I separated where Will Howard and Devin Brown were. I still h🌸ad Devin Brown in my top 15, 🐬but he wasn’t in my top 10 because of that reason. Andrew, Josh Fryer.
Is he higher because yoꦅu think he’s a tackle? But if we and if we get to the fa♉ll camp and he’s playing right guard now, does that change how you maybe would have voted for him in something like this?
Yeah, you kind of read my mind. I think, you know, Josh Simmons, I think is important because you need that big time left tackle. You need that, you know, you need that pass protector. You need that athletic guy on the line⛎ that can, you know, that can take that leap. I think that that was why I had him so high. I have Josh Fryer have for similar reasons because I don’t love Ohio State’s, you know, third and fourth tackle situation right now. I don’t know, like, all right, Tegra is Tegra S🦂hibola, you know, enough. I,
I don’t know, but also what if Te🌺gra Shibola is enough and Josh Fryer kicks to guard? Because Ryan Day has pretty clearly made it a point that Josh Fryer is one of the best five offeꦺnsive linemen that they have. He said that explicitly after the spring game where he said, you know, of course somebody asked him a question about Josh Fryer and he goes, of course we believe Josh Fryer can play tackle. He’s done it. So we know he can play tackle. He’s one of our best five.
Andrew (21:23.598)
We just gotta figure out where we’re gonna put him. So that versatility of playing on that right side, especially maybe you’re playing on the right side with somebody who hasn’t played in ever, you know, you’re playing with Luke Montgomery, someone who’s taking his first snaps on an offensive line, or you’re playing with Tegra Shibola who hasn’t really played sigꦺnificant minutes in any kind of significant game or anything like that. Yeah, that’s a huge deal. So.
Josh Fryer has been laude♔d this off season for like changing his body and really kind of taking a big leap forward going into this off season and going into spring practice. So I mean, to me, Josh Fryer, because of the versatility that he has, whether or not you’re going to play him at right guard or right tackle, because of who you’re going to play him next to, whether that’s Tegra Shibola, whether that’s Carson Hinsman, whether that’s Luke Montgomery, whatever it is, he’s going to be in a really important role. And...
Considering where this offensive line is, I mean, I had three offensive linemen in the top 11 and I had the offensive line coach fifth. So I think you 💜can kind of get a sense on how I think or how I made up this list, I should say.
Stephen Means (22:32.799)
So I wanna move on to number nine. Cause I think this is going to be an interesting discussion of upside talent ability versus value based on what else is also in the room✨ with him. Coming in at number nine, the Texers had this gu🍌y at 15. I had him at eight.
Andrew had him at 13. Nathan, you had this💜 guy at number two on your list. And that’s Jeremiah Smith with a score of 7 .85.
in our top 10 true freshman wid𝄹e receiver first has lost his black stripe quicker than anybody in Ohio State football history. Number one player in the country, maybe the best wide receiver recruit of the past dec💜ade. Everything else you want to say under the sun about him. You had him. I think it was the right move to have him on this list. I’m wondering why number two for you.
So this is where I was talking before about how if you’re replacing something essential that left, you got extra credit. Listen, you think about talking about reasons why Ohio State could win a national championship this year. The offense has to be better than it was last year. We 🔥don’t know yet if the quarterback play will be better than common💞 core was last year. We do absolutely do not know that.
Mm -hmm.
Nathan Baird (23:56.514)
No one out there can say for certain that these guys will be better than Kyle McCord was last year in terms of efficiency, in terms of decision making, in teཧrms of whatever thing you want to put there. Maybe I’m not saying certainly there are individual aspects where they could be better, but you know what I’m saying? Total, total performance. We don’t know that that’s going to be better. And the one weapon that made Kyle M💝cCord as good as he was is gone. And we think Emeka Buka can be a really strong receiver this year.
I don’t think any of us think of him like Marvin Ayrson Jr. yet. I suppose he could come out and do that again this year, but there’s just a special presence that someone like Marvin Ayrson Jr. had. And Emeka Ibuka, while being someone who I think you could comfortably project as being maybe a first round NFL receiver, hasn’t reall💖y hit those note💃s yet, and Jeremiah Smith kind of already is. And if you start talking about...
what guys who weren’t here last year but are here now could change what this offense is fundament🌳ally. Whichever quarterback wins this job, I would put higher on this list probably than Jeremiah Smith. That🀅’s who would have been like number two or maybe even number one on my list if we knew for sure who that was gonna be. But absent that, I think this is where I put him because if you start looking ahead to, you start,
Imagine yourself in January.
watching Ohio State about to go play for a na🔯tional championship and imagining what the things were that had to, that occurred, that pushed them through all the obstacles that we see potential🐓ly in front of them. Having to go win at Oregon, having to find a way to finally beat Michigan again, having to get through an extended playoff situation, having to beat a better team in the big team championship game than they’ve maybe ever had to beat before. Like all those things, like what potentially helps you do that, it’s...
Nathan Baird (25:56.802)
undefined special whatever talent at a premium position and Jeremiah Smith is starting to look like that’s what he is.🍸 So that’s where he, I gave him that maybe extra credit is because not only does he have to replicate or fill in, he has to fill the shoes of Marvin Har🗹ris Jr. to some extent, but he’s already doing it. Like he’s already in terms of how much teams are maybe gonna have to game plan for him.
That’s different than a Mecha -Buka. That’s different than Karnell Tate. Like you’re already seeing the signs of that. Maybe we’r⭕e out in front of it too much and maybe we’ll look back on this in December and January and think, well, that was, you know, okay, he had a fine season, but this isn’t how we were talking about Karnell Tate at this 🌃time last year, right? Like we thought Karnell Tate was probably gonna play. They’d probably find a role for him. We’re talking about like, does Jeremiah Smith need to just be out there all the time and forget about how you’re rotating? Like that’s sort of how we’re talking about this. And for when this offense has to take a step,
past last season. Part of taking that step is either the quarterbacks have to be way, way, way better to make up for not having Marvin Arison Jr. anymore, or somebody has to replicate some of that special that Marvin Arison Jr. had. And there are indications that he might be able to do that pretty quickly💧.
I thought about putting him higher because of that reason. I think that’s the most valid reason for ever putting him at number two. Andrew, you didn’t have him, I think, in your top 1🐲0. No, you had him outside of your top 10. Why no love for JJ?
Well, I had a Mecca hire, and i👍t wasn’t necessarily no love for JJ, 𓆉I think.
Stephen Means (27:35.679)
I’m gonna call it No Love for JJ. ☂Just in case JJ listens,🀅 he can come to you and you can do it.
Yeah. No love. Yeah. No love for JJ wou🔯ld be a good album name. But I the thing with a Mecca and the thing with JJ and the thing with Carnell to a lesser extent is. I think you’ve got a player in a Mecca who very clearly like look at🉐 some of the receivers that went at the end of the first round, that Pierce all guy from Florida went to the 49ers.
Um, Xavier worthy went to the chiefs and I know they want like a speedy receiver, but like, and Mecca Bucca in my opinion, when healthy is a better receiver than both of those playe꧙rs. And like, this is a guy who could very well have been a first round pick like a week ago. And the thing that I just can’t get past is Ohio state might have the, the horse of all horses in Jeremiah Smith.
They also have a guy who could be in the NFL right now. And that’s a Mecca Bucca. And I think when it comes down to value, which is maybe I looked too hard at this. I know every year there’s a conversation in every sport about, well, who’s the best player? Well, who’s the most valuable? So maybe I look too much at value here. But like if🙈, let’s say a Mecca, you know, is hurt again or something like that.
Then you’re, or drops off or what, I don’t know, whatever crazy thing you can think of. Then you’re down to Jeremiah, who is very talented and very good, but is a freshman and Cardell Tate, who didn’t really have a super big role last year. Emeka Igubuka is awesome. And I don’t want to make the Jeremiah Smith point an Emeka Igubuka point, but I think that that was why I had Jeremiah down. I think this ꧙was a little b𓆉it like, maybe you could make an argument with the secondary where it’s just like.
Andrew (29:30.158)
Okay, they’re all really good. So who’s more valuable than another? And I think they all kind of pulled each other down in a little bit. I felt the same way about receiver. I think Jeremiah Smith very good. And I’ve said before, I don’t think it’s crazy to think he’s like the best receive🧜r on this team in like a month or two into the season. I just think that Emeka Gbuka is more valuable. And I think with Jeremiah, he hasn’t been part of this offense yet and we still need to see what his value is.
So I had Jeremiah higher th🍎an Mecca. Mecca wasn’t in my top 10, Jeremiah was. And Nathan laid out a lot of the reason why. I’m gonna take this step further. I’ve been looking through, trying to find some true freshmen around the country who have maybe had, you know.
Excellent sees like the type of years where we’re thinking Jeremiah Smith might be able to have here and then trying to narrow in on receivers who have also done it on teams who had championship expectations because that’s very different right Nathan if you’re a freshman doing it out of school that’s going to go nine and three well it’s awesome but it’s like I mean they kind of needed you to do that versus doing it for a school who’s in the college football playoff and like they didn’t absoꦏlutely need you to do it but you did it anyway right and the most recent one I could find
was Clemson in 2018. And I’m going to use Clemson to make both of your guys’ poi✤nts here on why, Andrew, you had a Mecca Bucca so high. I think a Mecca Bucca is T Higgins in this situation. T Higgins in 2018, 59 catches, 936 yards and 12 touchdowns. Quality receiver, right? High value receiver, right? Really good. NFL level receiver. He was the 33rd pick in the NFL draft. Quality receiver, wide receiver, two level receiver. Really good receiver.
Justin Ross that year had 46 catches for a thousand yards and n🌱ine touchdowns and he went bananas at the end of the season, which is like kind of what we’re talking abou🎀t here, Nathan, right? Is when you get to those games, here’s his playoff performances. Here’s now actually here’s his, his performances from ACC championship game on against Pitt. They won 42 to 10, two catches for 70 yards against Notre Dame and the college football semifinal.
Stephen Means (31:36.287)
Playoff semifinal, six catches, 148 yards and two touchdowns. Against Bama, when the Tigers kind of just whipped him, six catches, 153 yards and a𒆙 touchdown. And it just felt like that was the Justin Ross day. And it was like, okay, that dude’s in the conversation to be one of the best receivers in the country for the next two y🍌ears. He was so good.
That when Garrett Wilson got on this campus in 2019, like three weeks later, we’re asking Garrett, hey, you saw what Justin Ross just did? You think you can do that as a true freshman? Garrett flashed. H♏e had his moments. He had to catch a✃gainst Clemson. This is a whole different level. He was never quite this.
what Justin Ross was at the end of the year, Nathan. And I think that’s what you’re talking about with Jeremiah Smith. And it didn’t just, it’s not Chris Olave like where Chris Olave showed up a🌌gainst Michigan, had the two catches, and then it was on, but for like the first 11 🔯weeks, he wasn’t really a part of things. No, Justin Ross was a part of things the entire year.
Two for 16 against Furman started out slow next week, three for 103 against another FCS opponent earlier that year. Wake Forge five for 74 against NC State five for 75. He had been building ཧup to this all year as a guy where to your point, Andrew T Higgins is valuable. T Higgins is a really good receiver, but he ain’t no Justin Ross. And I think that’s what we’re talking about with Jeremiah Smith is yes.
A Mecca Bucca is really good. Did you see the catch he had in the spring game? Cardinal Tate might be really good. Brandon Hinnis might be really good, but there ain’t no Jeremiah Smith. So Nathan, the reason why I hope you didn’t take me asking is like, why did yo🐷u have them so high? It was more like you went 90 in a place where I think I was going 75 and it made me think maybe I should have been going 85.
Nathan Baird (33:20.866)
Yeah, how uncommon for me to be the one who’s running away with a receiver thing here. But for me, it’s as you’rไe imagining the championship team, the team that just won a national championship. Like somebody’s going to start. We know they’re not going to have me. Somebody has to start at receiver. But it’s like who emerged in such a special way that it sort of transformed what the defense or the offense is. He’s the guy that
can do that the most, I think, on this roster, other than the quarterbacks, oth♐er than Will Howard or Devin Brown, either one, stepping up and playing, obviously, the best football of their career, and taking the quarterback performance up a notch from where it was a year ago.
Stephen Means (34:12.575)
That’s a, I think that was, that’s a smart place to over exaggerate. Cause that’s what we’re ta🌜lking about. A guy who might be doing it all year. And then when it’s time to go win a championship, it’s like, it’s on that dude. He’s the dude in the games that matter most. And he’s talking, we’re talking about a true freshman and to your point, he’s replacing a dude who was a dude.
when it mattered most in that game, whether you’re talking about Penn State, he was awesome against Michigan, man. He’s not the reason they lost. He had 100 yards back to back years. The Georgia game, he was dominating Georgia and he got knocked out of the game. That’s what we’re talking about here. A dude replacing the number four pick in the NFL draft. And for the last four months, he’s made you feel like you’re not going to say you’re not going to miss the number four ✱pick in the NFL draft, but you’ll be OK not having the number four pick in the NFL draft on your roster. That’s so far. That’s nine and ten. Jeremiah Smith at nine.
Josh Fryer and Devin Brown 😼tie for number 10. We’ve got three more people to get through here. One more tie and then a couple other guys as well when we come back here on Puk Eye Talk.
Stephen Means (35:12.959)
So this is our second tie of th♛is conversation and it’s tied for.
Seven. So it’d be seven eight since we’re doing a tie thing in this situation. Both of these guys, eight point three five. Nathan, you had the high on both of these guys. We kind of just had an Amekabuka conversation. I think the Texers pushed up Amekabuka a little bit more because they were a little bit higher on on Amekabuka than they were Jeremiah Smith. I think they took the more I want🌜 to say responsible route, but they thought things more like Andrew did in that situation. So he’s tied at seven along with JT Tui Malo out. Amekabuka also got a first and a first.
place vote and that’s probably where the difference was. JT Chuyo Maloao and Emeka Buka both coming in at 8 .35. Nathan, JT Chuyo Maloao is not the highest defensive lineman on your list but he is number f🍸ive so you do have two guys in your top five I believe. Why is JT so high for𓆏 you?
Yeah, and I not knowing exactly how we would format thi🅠s. I mean, you could have a Sawyer to a Malo out conversation together, I suppose. But for the sake of this.
Nathan Baird (36:23.17)
There’s still unrealized greatness, pos🥃sibly, in certain guys on this team. And I think, I guess you could say that about literally anybody, but I think we see, we’ve just seen pieces of it from certain guys that we know that there’s something more to reach for.💧 And if they can ever do it consistently,
how much of a force it would make them and how much it would make this already strong defense even more imposing. And so he’s very high on that list because all of the attributes are there. And what he means as an all around player 🤪to this defense, even from a position where you have some specialized d💎uties, is kind of can’t be.
understated and we’ve seen it happen in the very biggest games and that was the other reason I thought he had to be high on this list is because when you start talking about value someone’s value against Akron is different than their value against Oregon or their value against Michigan certainly in a value in the postseason and Wheth🎶er it was against Penn State a couple years ago whether it was against Notre Dame last year, you know, JT Tumalo out has a
history of stepping up in big games🔯 and doing cruc🙈ial things. And it’s very easy to kind of look into the future and imagine writing those stories about him in those games when they come along here in seven, eight months.
Stephen Means (00:05.981)
So I had JT6 and it’s for a lot of the rea🧜sons you just pointed out there, Nathan. I mean, he just shows up and when the games are the biggest, right? You talk about the Penn State game in 2022. You talk about the Notre Dame game where he plays the whole game. And at the end of the game, he makes two crucial plays that probably define that game.
just as much as anything else. He’s making plays in the Penn State game later that season as well. When they’ve needed a play to be made in his career, JT Twielmo Lowell has made them. And that’s what, I mean, you need that when you get into the college football playoff, when you get through a season like this, when you get to Oregon, they’re gonna need him to make plays ⛎in those situations. I also didn’t want to separate him and Jack Sawyer too much because they’re not the same exact player. They maybe impact the game at their best in different ways.
but I do think, I don’t think there’s a difference in terms of the effect they can have on a game at the college football level. Now, if we want to talk draft stock, that’s a different conversation, but I think both of tho✅se guys can be effective. And that’s why I didn’t want 🐻to have them too far away from each other. Andrew, you a little bit lower on JT Tui Malauau. You had him 12th.
And then you had Jack Sawyer 17th. I’m going to introduce Jack Sawyer to this conversation as w✃ell, cause he’s sixth. He’s our final guy. This side of the top 10. He had one first place vote. There is a gap between him and where Emeka Buka and JT Tui Moloao are. His overall score was 10 .4. So everybody else in up is going to have at least a score of 10. Everybody else had Jack Sawyer higher than JT Tui Moloao, but you, you had JT Tui Moloao higher than Jack Sawyer. First and foremost thou﷽gh, why are both of them so low on your list?
and why JT over Jack.
Andrew (01:41.87)
Yeah, we’re just going back to the beginning of the pod where it’s just like, Hey, Andrew, your list is wildly different. What up with that? Um, I think, um, it definiteไly, the value, I think it goes down because of the entire defensive line. Um, the entire defensive line is really good. Tyler Williams, Ty Hamilton, Cade, McDonald, Jason Moore, here, canoe, Will Smith. Like the interior is really good. And you have depth at the edge.
And I understand there’s going to be a drop off because we’re talking aboutꦍ, you know, Jack Sawyer and JT is potential first round picks in a year. That’s completely reasonable and fair conversation to have, but I think you like what you have in Kenyatta Jackson. I think you like what you have in Caden Curry. I think you like the early returns from Edward Houston. We’ll see. Um, I mean, that guy’s got to put on some weight, but I think most people that are.
should be in their spring semester, their senior year of high school do look li♈ke that. So I just, I think you have a lot there to where it really pulled down a lot of defensive players for me in terms of like who’s more valuable than one another, because it’d be one thing if it was JT to Malo out and then Kaden Curry was across from him. And then you had some nondescript third and you know,
you know, second and third team guys who just hadn’t really done anything and maybe weren’t highly rated as recruits or something like that, or who hadn’t flashed. Like I just, I feel like you have enough there to where maybe the value of those guys can get brought down. They still deserve a place in,ꦓ you know, top 12, top 15, top 17, whatever. I had JT higher than Jack becau🍸se I think the ceiling is higher with JT.
Like ♎I think that the ceiling of this like 12 to 15 sat guy is there for JT. And I think with Jack, it’s much more, you know, we’ve kind of talked about this in like a well -rounded fashion, plays the run really well, does things that coaches love really well. He just, he’s just incredibly even keel, incredibly well -rounded as a football player. So to me, that was why I had JT higher, because I think in terms of what...
Andrew (04:01.038)
JT can give you in terms of like that athleticism that speed to power off the edge, you know, the run the pass rush I think that that really would elevate Ohio State’s defense To another level frankly, so I had JT higher just because I think the ceiling is higher with him. I know For some guys on this list. I had the floor, you know, for exampl💧e, like when I talked about Josh Simmons I was like, you know, I think Josh Simmons is more valuable because XYZ and I think that the the second level is really dangerous, but
for some guys on this list, I had the floor, you know, for example, like when I talked about Josh Simmons, I was like, you know, I think Josh Simmons is more valuable because XYZ and I think that the second level is really dangerous. But with JT for me, I just think the ceiling is sucꩵh a level where he’s really valuable. So the Texas had JT 12 on their list. I had him six. Nathan, you had him fifth. Let’s get into Jack Sawyer. Now you we both had him fourth on our list and the Texas were
JT for me, I just think the ceiling is such a level where he’s really valuable💮 to this team.
Stephen Means (04:49.071)
really high on Jack Sawyer as well. They had him sixth. So😼 he’s the second highest defensive player on their list. I think he’s the second highest defensive player on both of our lists as well. Is this all about Jack Sawyer might be ready to just be a sack guy and there’s value in having a guy that Ohio State hasn’t had since 2019 and a guy who can game wreck a game by getting sacks.
To me it is, and it’s, I had him one spot higher than Tumaloao. It could have been a 4A, 4B like Andrew tried to get away with, I suppose. I put him a little bit higher though, because he’s the one that I think we’ve, we may have seen the best of JT Tumaloao. Maybe we have, and maybe we’re wrong. Maybe there isn’t something more that he reaches for. It’s just a matter of being more co🔯nsistent, wh🦹ich I guess is its own new level to reach for.
But Sawyer, we saw something different from him in th𒅌e second half of last season that tells you maybe there’s more to be built on going into next year, this fall. And even if he’s the one of the two that we have always thought was maybe more of the natural edge rusher that you could define as a sack guy, I guess, as you just did. And it’s the element that this defense has been missing, even as it’s gotten better here these last two years.
is just a, for lack of a better term, like intimidating presence off of the edge. Not the teams I think don’t respect the guys that Ohio State puts out there, but he can be something else. He can, if he’s a guy who can come in and ℱget you, push for double digit sacks for the first time in a long time now for this d♒efense, which is such a weird thing to say, but if he can come in and push towards that, then.
Again, it’s just what is already taking this defense that’s really great and that we looked at last year only allowing 17 points, more than 17 points once, and which absolutely played well enough to win the cotton ball hands down and dominated Missouri at times, a team that has a lot of⛎ offensive weapons, including guys that are being projected as first round picks next year. Like all those things, like he can take all of that.
Nathan Baird (07:06.323)
and ratcheted up another notch. That’s him and the guy, the only guy that I ranked higher on defense are both guys that I see as being because of him or what he’s hinted, the other one similarly at a different position. But like everything that last year’s defense was, what could push it up another notch? I think Jack Sawyer kind of unlocking the key to all of these, just piling up sac🔯ks and making teams have to protect.
against Ohio State in a different way, he falls into that category 🌳for me.
Stephen Means (07:44.989)
It’s just what that can open up and just in terms of creativity with Jim Knowles, having a guy like that who can just get after it, but also in some ways, maybe simplify things as well when you need to write Ohio State’s 2019 defense wasn’t the most, you know, complicated defen💦se in the world. It was very simple. Watch Chase young kill quarterbacks in every so and watch Jeff Okuda shut down a side of the field that is on the table of Jac💮k Sawyer turning into that. And you mix that with what this backend might look like while also Jim
isn’t going to be simple all the time, right? I mean, into that during the spring, like the double eagle look where you’ve got Jack and JT standing up. And we saw a preview of that in the spring game where you’ve got, you know, five defensive linemen in the game where Jack and JT are on the outside standing up. You’ve got Kenyatta Jackson and Kaden Curry in there along with Ty Hamilton, and they can do ever🌄ything else under the sun. But if you’ve got a guy who other teams have to game plan for and be worried about every time it’s third and seven, and if it feels like Jack Sawyer is starting to flash the
that I’m with you. That’s what pushed him higher for me. He ends up six for the texters and it’s literally like a point one difference between him and who number five is,🌊 which will reveal on Tuesday. A couple of coaches in that list, couple of defensive guys, couple of offensive guys as well. And the top five get the text 614 -350 -3315 if you want to have your voice heard and stuff like this. So this is our top 10, six through 10 so far. Number 10, Josh Fryer and Devon Brown are tied. Number nine, J𒁏eremiah Smith.
tied at number seven, Ameka, Buka and JT Tui and Maloao and at number six, Jack Sawyer. So six guys for five spots beca꧑use we had some ties in there as well. And when you tie, you get a chance to be in this conversation. This isn’t like the college football playoff where you can win all your games and still get left out of the college football playoff simply because your quarterback got hurt. We’re not going to do that in this situation. So that’s six through 10. We’ll do one through five on the pod on Tuesday. Get the text six one four three five oh three three one five. The transfer portal window is closed, but guys are still making dꦯecisions on where they’re going.
going. There are people who are reportedly visiting Ohio State, whether it’s through the transfer portal or recruits. And we’re texting about that stuff as well. Two week free trial, $3 .99 after that for Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis. I’m Stephen Me🐠ans and that was Puck Eye Talk.
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