What was the biggest moment of Game 7? Wine and Gold Talk Podcast

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, the conversation emphasizes the teamwork and resilience of the Cavs in Game 7.

Takeaways:

• The Cavs showed resilience and thꦗe ability to perform under pressure in Gam🍷e 7.
• Players like Evan Mobley, Darius Garland, and Isaac Okoro stepped up in crucial moments.
• Evan Mobley’s defensive impact was particul🌸arly notew🌳orthy, limiting the production of key Magic players.
• The Cavs demonstrated g📖rowth and progress as a teamꦦ.
• Sam Merrill made a significant impact off the bench with his shot-making, provi✅ding an offensive boost for the team.
• The concept of ‘unicorn’ players was discussed, highlighting the importance of unique qualities and the ability to make a diཧfference on the court.
• Confidence and support from teammates, such as Donovan Mitchell’s encouragement of Darius 𒀰Garland, ca🍰n have a positive impact on a player’🎉s performance.
• Coach J.B. Bickerstaff made strategic dec🎉isions and adjustments throughout the game, demonstrating his ability to make effective coaching decisions in🔯 high-pressure situations.
• The Cavs showcased teamwork and resilience in their pl𝔉ayoff run, exemplifying the importance of collective effo🤡rt in achieving success.

Listen using the player below:

You♑ can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.

Subscribe and listen on or .

The video version of the podcast is on as well:

BetMGM Ohio BET $5, GET $158 BONUS BETS

CLAIM OFFERPromo code: CLE158

21+ and present in Ohio. Gamblin💟g problem? Call 1-800-Gam𒆙bler.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands (00:00.397)

What up Cavs Nation? 💫I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. We are coming to you after game 7. The best two words in sports. And maybe even sweeter for the Cavs knowing that they walked away with the W. They came away with a 106 -94 victory a๊gainst the Orlando Magic and now

They’re already on their way to Boston, getting ready to face the Celtics on Tuesday. Let’s look at some important stats for today’s game in the win in Cavs franchise history, shall we? The last time they won a game seven in the first round, the Cavs ended up going to the NBA finals. Shout out LeBron James. That’s where we’re starting today, Chris. That’s where we’re🌸 starting.

Chris Fedor (00:55.166)

You

Chris Fedor (00:58.686)

Every podcast so far that we’ve done in the playoffs 𒅌has been a trip down memory lane doing th💞e history of all this stuff. It’s amazing.

Ethan Sands (01:08.365)

The history is important because as you say, Chris, it’s ﷽history. So it doesn’t matter. But the Cavs improved the six and two all time in game sevens. It’s their fourth stra🅘ight victory in game seven. The Cavs also had an 18 point comeback, which is the largest in NBA history in a game seven since the league started tracking play by play. So that’s just insane to think about.

Chris Fedor (01:10.718)

Carry on.

Ha ha ha.

Ethan Sands (01:37.837)

I don’t know when they started tracking it play by play, but that was a long time ago. So Chris, I want to get into your thoughts on just the atmosphere, the arena. We’ll get 🌠into that 18 point com𓂃eback, but I want to get your thoughts on game seven in Cleveland. It’s not your first one. Me and Jimmy, it was our first time. How does it compare for you to other ones you have been a part of?

Chris Fedor (02:03.102)

Oh geez, you are just setting me up. Are you kidding me? What am I supposed to say? No matter what I say here, fans are just going to get pissed. It was great. It was a great atmosphere, especially in the second half when the Cavs were playing much better basketౠball. I definitely think in the second half that the fans contributed, the rally towels being out.

Ethan Sands (02:09.421)

in Cleveland.

Chris Fedor (02:31.55)

The the boisterous chance whil𓄧e guys were at the free throw line on both sides of it But look like early on in the game Fans were booing JB Biggerstaff got🐈 booed for the second straight time during pregame introductions pregame introductions led to JB Biggerstaff getting booed so I Think it was it was a crowd that showed The tension that has built throughout the course of the regular season

the belie🉐f that has f🀅aded in this team throughout the course of this regular season. And also that when it’s time to turn it on and when there’s an understanding that the team is playing better basketball and it’s time to reward them with that level of play, this fan base can crank it up to a level that very few fan bases around the NBA can. So Cleveland showed up, Cleveland was ready. They had the rally towels, they had the shirts.

They were ready for a game seven, but when the Cavs came out and they didn’t look ready, they didn’t look like they could match the moment. The fans quickly recognized that they started booing murmurs, all that kind of stuff. But late in the game, as the Cavs were pushing and trying to hold off the Orlando Magic in the fourth quarter, it was an intense atmosphere. It was a rowdy atmo💖sphere. It became unhinged on multiple occasions.

Darius Garland’s three𝔉 pointer from the corner around the midway point of the fourth quarter, one ꦚof the signature moments of today’s game. Like that caused an uproar that you would expect in a game seven.

Jimmy Watkins (04:14.074)

Cleveland showed up, oh sorry. Yeah, Cleveland showed up becau𒉰se the Cavs showed up, right? Like, this is not, you don’t get unconditional love around here. Like, you gotta earn it. Early on, it was ugly, man. Bickerstaff got booed. George Nian got booed on the Jumbotron while he was talking about how much the crowd can help during like one of those between, like between timeouts things that they throw on the.

Ethan Sands (04:14.093)

And we’re good? No, go ahead.

Chris Fedor (04:20.638)

That’s right.

Jimmy Watkins (04:44.058)

Humongo Tron like that was brutal. It got to the point where like you could hear the very few magic fans in the building chant. Let’s go magic. And I one particular free throw trip that Orlando made in the first half. There was the PA guy g🦹oing make some noise. And it’s like🍸 it felt more like a like a please. Could you?

Chris Fedor (05:11.902)

Yes. That’s right.

Jimmy Watkins (05:13.498)

Like, it’s supposed to be like, we all know, we’re all ಞin o🍸n the joke here, but like, it sounded like he was really asking. It really did.

Chris Fedor (05:20.638)

Yes. So to your point, Jimmy, since you brought this up, I have to interject here. I sit next to Joe Varden from the Athletic and Joe Varden and I are very close. We are golf partners. We hang out together on the road. We hang out together in the summertime. So we’re very, very close. And I turned to him and I was like, wa🤪it, they’re starting this already? Usually they reserve this for the second half. Usually they reserve this for the fourth quarter or the final six minutes of the fourth quarter.

I was like, buddy, they’re starting this early. You know, it’s desperate times here if they’re going to start this this early in the game. And you’re right, Jimmy, like it was it felt born out of desperation. Like we got to get something to get꧂ this crowd going back on our side, because right now they’re turning against the team and the players because the players aren’t doing anything to earn adulation.

Jimmy Watkins (06:14.202)

Yeah, but again, eventually it was great. It was rocking🅺. Um, I think it’s tough to put, I mean, like, we’ll talk about more about the game a little bit, but I think as this game progressed, Orlando lost composure. And I think that the crowd definitely played a role in that. It was really loud in there and it was enough. It was enough stress on a young team to be dealing with the momentum shift of.

Chris Fedor (06:17.022)

Yes, of course.

Chris Fedor (06:30.206)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (06:43.418)

the scoreb🏅oard, 🐻but to have the crowd swing the way it did alongside that momentum shift was impactful, I think.

Ethan Sands (06:54.061)

Yeah, and just like being on🌃 social media and having to do a live blog and trying to get all this information at the same time that the game is happening. I’m looking and seeing all these comments from fans and there’s literally people that were online that switched from this season is over. The game is over to, oh my God, we might have a chance against Boston. Like there ended up being chance in Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse.

for We Want Boston.

Chris Fedor (07:24.382)

Little aggressive, little aggressive, if we’re being honest about that one, but that’s the thing that you love about fans, right? That’s the thing that you love about playoff basketball, the emotional swings from minute to minute, quarter to quarter, half to half. It gets great. I love it. Like when a team loses a game in the playoffs, you get this feeling of they can’t possibly win a game🦂 in this series. And then when a team wins a game in the series, you’re like,

They can’t possibly lose. There’s too much good things that they were doing and it’s just going to carry over to game two, game three. But it certainly doesn’t work like that. And there is nothing like a playoff series and the emotional swings involved in a playoff series. Honestly, I don’t know how people in this front office do it. Right. I don’t know how J .B. Bickerstaff does it. I don’t know how the players do it. It is such ♓an emotional roller coaster.

Jimmy Watkins (08:22.426)

It’s an emotional roller coaster for me trying to pick an angle to write about during the game. I’m roughed up in that. But yeah, the Cavs crowd﷽ today was kind of like watching your friend who wa💙lks back and forth in front of the TV and yelled stuff. It’s a fun person to watch, watch a game. That’s how I felt watching that crowd today.

Chris Fedor (08:26.142)

Right?

Chris Fedor (08:39.39)

Yeah

Ethan Sands (08:45.933)

Yeah, and I mean, we want to you guys kind of got into it really early. The swing of this game and the fact that this Cavs team has been counted out so many times this season and almost every time it 🐷feels like we’ve talked about it on this podcast. This team plays better with his back against the wall. I don’t know what it is. I don’t know why that might be the case.

But when Evan Mobley and Darius Garland were injured in t🐭he beginning of the season, other teams were trying to figure out if Donovan Mitchell was available because the team felt like it might be tanking time. But the team did not feel that at all. They ended up going on one of the better run♚s of their season right after that. And then again, when they struggled against the Charlotte Hornets to end the season, the fans were...

coming back and saying, there’s no way we beat the Indiana Pacers to clinch playoff seating. Then the Cavs did that. And now in gamꦏe seven of the NBA playoffs, the Cavs were down and were down 18 points at one point during this contest and then swung it all the way back to win by double digits.

Chris Fedor (09:54.238)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (10:11.885)

So when I texted our subtexters during the game and talking about the scenarios that we had been talking about with the fans interactions, how the fans were changing and booing the team on their own home court, how the Orland๊o Magic fans that were literally grouped together behind the Orlando Magic bench were making more noise across the entire arena than the Cavs fans that were sitting right next to us. I was confused.

Chris Fedor (10:35.422)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (10:41.357)

to feel that there🎀 were so little believers in a team that has shown that they can come back in scenarios when they’ve been down by more than 18 points. Remember the Dallas Mavericks game? Remember the Boston Celtics game? Like those games come to mind. What does, to you guys, w🤪hat does it tell you in this scenario, in this magnitude?

Chris Fedor (10:55.838)

Sure.

Chris Fedor (11:03.838)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (11:08.461)

for this team to come back in this kind of scenario? Or is it just that regular season momentum and 🍌regular season know -how in these scenarios to be able to do stuff like this?

Chris Fedor (11:24.254)

Any playoff series win is going to🎉 be difficult. Anyone. And you can’t start taking playoff victories for granted. You can’t just sit here and say, well, the Cavs did what they were supposed to do against Orlando.⛦ Yes, they did. They were the favorite team. They were the four seed. Orlando was the five seed. The Cavs had home court advantage. But it doesn’t always work that way. So I think when any team wins a playoff series, understanding how difficult that is, you have to give them credit.

Was it as pretty as maybe fan🌄s wanted it to be? No. Was it as pretty as people around the NBA wanted it to be? No. Did it ans🙈wer questions long term about this team? Probably not as many as you would like answered. Did it mean that like every problem, every flaw that they have when it comes to roster construction and when it comes to in -game strategy and stuff like that?

Does this win in game seven, does this series win against Orlando mean all of that stuff is now masked moving forward? No, they still have flaws, they still✨ have weaknesses, they still have problems that they’re going to have to 🌳address after this series against Boston in this off season when eventually that comes. But what it is, is it’s a step forward for this organization. It was a meaningful moment for this organization.

Um, it was a meaningful moment for Darius Garland and Evan Mobley to come through the way that they did in various ways. Um, not everybody has to go out and score, you know, 40, 50 points the way that Do꧑novan Mitchell can the way that Donovan Mitchell does. Everybody has a different role on this team and to sh to, to, to have Evan Mobley in a situation where Jarrett Allen is once again out because of a bruised rib, um, step up and, and grab.

16 rebounds and five on the offensive end and have five blocks and anchor the paint, anchor a defense that neutralized the magic and held them to 41 points in the second half. That’s a big step forward. That’s something that Evan needs in his career, right? For Darius🍰 Garland to have some failures in game six, especially in the fourth quarter of game six, and to learn from those things.

Chris Fedor (13:45.054)

And to be better because of those things, like that’s a big step forward. That’s something that needs to happen for this organization to continue to evolve and progress. So to me, like thiꦡs game seven, yeah, some of it, so, so much of it was about Donovan Mitchell and the brilliance of Donovan Mitchell and the way that, you know, he just would not allow this team to lose and the way that he met the moment. Um,

But they also got contributions from other guys across the board. And I think this win against the Magic and how they were able to do it and overcoming the things that they overcame and exercising some of their playoff demons from last year against the Knicks and understanding the opporꦓtunity that slipped away from them in game six on the road against the Magic. To me, this was a team that grew up a little bit today in game seven.

And when they needed to, they made the plays that are required of a team to make when it comes to game seven playoff level basketball. We asked, coming into this game,🍃 who is going to rise up and match the moment? And look, ther🌟e were various points throughout the course of the game where the answer was nobody but Donovan Mitchell. Maybe nobody but Donovan Mitchell and Karis LaVert.

But like by tꦜhe end of the four quarters and a basketball game is four quarters, you can’t꧑ ignore things in the first half and just focus on the second half. Just like you can’t ignore things in the second half and just focus on the first half. It is the total, right? And after 48 minutes of a game seven, a lot of different guys in a lot of different ways found a way to match the moment and...

They were able to handle the magnitude of a game seven plไayoff game well enough that it represents a step forward for the organization to me.

Jimmy Watkins (15:50.33)

We talked earlier in the series about how immature some of those road Orlando losses felt the way and in the, in the cabs worst moments, you worry that t𓆉hey are front running team, right? Like they get, like we’ve uꦆsed enough boxing metaphors, uh, in this, with this team, the last couple of years to, uh, to fill an arena in Las Vegas, but like get hit in the face and you’re just done. You just get dropped.

Chris Fedor (15:56.176)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (16:03.71)

For sure.

Jimmy Watkins (16:20.282)

how like the first two Orlando, I mean, it was like really stunning to see how little fight they’ve offered in those games onc🤪e the magic went on runs. I think the last three games of this series, they showed growth in that area, but obviously today is the culmination of that, right? Like.

Even earlier, like if this had happened in game one, if today, if that script, same script opens game one of thi🥃s series, I don’t think we’re getting a similar result to what we g🥃ot today. They’re certainly not coming back and winning by double digits. I’m very confident in saying that, but I don’t think they win the game. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lost the game ugly. And.

I think it represents, so that represents growth in a large holistic sense because last year again against the Knicks, you ಞget punched, you kind of fall down. That’s the story of a couple of those games. That’s the story of the series. It’s just kind of like after the first two games, the great good response in game two, the game five, the game five in that series was, was ugly man.

you could see that that team was ready for that series to be over, you know what I🅠 mean? And I got that kind of feeling at the beginning of the first half of this game, but they overcame that. To Chris’s point, a lot of signs of individual growth in this series too, right? Like, Karras the Vert was lost, lost, hidden on the bench in game six and kept them afloat at times in the first half.

Chris Fedor (17:41.214)

Mm.

Chris Fedor (17:45.022)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (17:57.086)

Oh, yeah.

Chris Fedor (18:07.325)

Right, he did. He did.

Jimmy Watkins (18:08.442)

Really important. It might not get remembered by history. I’m right about Karras for t🍒omorrow morning, but like that was a very important stretch for Karras was consistently generating offense and he had some very important shots that he created for others late in the fourth quarter. Darius kind of closed the game. He led the team in scoring in the fourth quarter after really struggling for most of this game. Also had three steals in this game and like,

Chris Fedor (18:18.462)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (18:30.686)

You did?

Jimmy Watkins (18:38.714)

Not one of the steals, I watched all three of them back. One was kind of a weird dumb pass by a magic player, but like he had to have good hands to grab it. But the other one was gritty, like snuck up behind someone and took the ball and fighting for standing his gr🧸ound. Another instance today, I think I noticed this after game one where Palo really just threw his body into Darius.🐈 Darius just took it and kept defending.

Chris Fedor (19:03.806)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (19:07.738)

Isaac O ‘Coro realizing that the Palo Banquero assignment is a marathon, not a sprint, because man, those first hundred meters, Palo was moving. He looked like this is the kind of guy who can win a game seven by himself, but they warmed down over thꦆe course of the game. There are numerous examples of this. And I’m with Chris in that, still got a long way to go. And those, 🍸we want Boston chance.

Chris Fedor (19:33.47)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (19:36.698)

May come back to haunt you in a little bit here, but take every step up the ladder coun๊ts. And the Cavs took a step up the ladder today.

Chris Fedor (19:43.55)

Great.

Yes, and ♏every playoff series, guys, requires something different. And what it ultimately requires at the very end is just finding a way, somehow some way. Answering the challenge, responding to a team’s runs, making the adjustments in the second half that you need to make. Like, it doesn’t matter that the Cavs margin for victory over seven total games in this serie💙s is one of the worst.

in playoff hi🌳story. It just does not matter because it was about finding a way against this specific opponent in this specific matchup in this specific situation. And just because one thing happened in one series, it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen in another series. I was talking to a member of the organization about this before game seven today, and we were talking about the C🌜avs in 2018, the final year of LeBron James. They went to the finals, right?

Anybody remember the first round playoff series?𓃲 It was against the Indiana Pacers. It went to seven games. Like Victor Oladipo tormented their dreams for seven straight games. He would just like retreat to half court and blow by everybod♉y. It took LeBron being, you know, LeBron, supernova LeBron for the Cavs, a team that a lot of people thought could advance to the NBA finals to beat the Indiana Pacers.

But that didn’t prevent them from going to the NBA Finals. And this isn’t me saying, well, the Cavs beat the Magic, so🌟 they’re going to the NBA Finals. No, no, no, no. I’m just saying every series requires something different. And there, I always say this in golf, there are no pictures on a scorecard. You just find a way to make a number.

Ethan Sands (21:34.605)

I love how you hated on my stat earlier about the 2018 team🌱, but you came back to that same notion. I see what you did there, Chris.

Chris Fedor (21:42.814)

I used it as a reference point, Ethan. That’s it.

Ethan Sands (21:46.189)

That’s fair, th👍at’s fair, but I’m saying I’m saying I was talking about that 2018 game 7 game 2 now. Okay now. Okay, but I was oh

Chris Fedor (21:51.582)

I’m sorry.

Chris Fedor (21:55.55)

Okay, fine. I’ll use it. I’ll use a different one for you. The Boston Celtics, when they won their championship with Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen, they went seven games in the first round against✤ the Atlanta Hawks. I don’t think they won a single game on the road against the Hawks.

That didn’t mean they weren’t a great team. That didn’t mean that, you know, you shouldn’t give them praise for getting out of that playoff series. It was just all about finding a way. N🎉ow the Cavs have to deal with a di🌟fferent monster. We’ll get to that later in the podcast.

Ethan Sands (22:27.533)

See, I was just.

Ethan Sands (22:31.949)

We’ll get to that tomorrow when we preview the game. Today’s about game seven. But that’s funny. I was just trying to make a joke and Chris had to stab me down. That’s fine. But I wanted to, we talked about yesterday and how we talked on the podcast about how everybody needed to step up. I think it’s safe to say everybody🦹 except for one player on the Cavs stepped up in game seven.

Chris Fedor (22:41.31)

You

Chris Fedor (22:58.014)

Oh come on, that’s so mean. Like, what are we -

Ethan Sands (23:00.589)

I - that’s the reality of the situatio⛦n, is it not? Is it not? Who el🐲se on -

Chris Fedor (23:05.95)

It is, but it’s just unnecessary from the top rope, if we’r🅺e being honest.

Jimmy Watkins (23:08.026)

I mean, ♉are we putting, look, look, I’m assuming we’re referring to the artist formerly known as George and Yang right now. Fair, it’s a fair point. Are we putting Marcus Morris’s first half minutes in the Hall of Fame? I don’t know about that. That’s what I’m saying though. It’s not just George. Like, Marcus didn’t play in the second half, Tristan barely played in the second ha🦋lf. Let’s not single the guy out. He’s already having a tough playoffs.

Ethan Sands (23:16.397)

Yeah

Chris Fedor (23:16.542)

Yeah, the three minutes. The ♋three minutes♊ that just weren’t very good.

Chris Fedor (23:23.742)

have to.

Ethan Sands (23:25.325)

fame.

Ethan Sands (23:35.117)

So... I’m not... Oh my god. Go ahead.

Chris Fedor (23:37.086)

Here’s the thing, the Cavs got enough support, the C༒avs got enough support around Donovan Mitchell. We can phrase it that way, Eღthan.

Ethan Sands (23:48.845)

I’m getting bullied today. I don’t like it. Okay, fine. I’m not bullying George. I think I wrote the most George and the Yanks stories out of the three of us this year. Anyway, I think that even when Tristan Thompson didn’t play a whole lot of minutes, his role was big. He had a couple of, he had some blocks that were big. He w💟as able to hold down the paint while Evan Mobley was out and he was able to fulfill his role.

Chris Fedor (23:51.71)

Heheheheh

Jimmy Watkins (23:52.41)

It’s because you▨’re trying to bully George. Bullies get bullied.

Ethan Sands (24:17.677)

Marquez Morris Sr., you can argue more so that he’𒀰s in the George Nye category from today. He didn’t do a whole lot, but he was out the court catching some cardio. Anyway, but everybody else, it felt like, like talk about Evan Mobley. Evan Mobley didn’t have the greatest offensive game, five blocks, 16 reboun꧂ds. That doesn’t go without saying, like that is huge. And not only to mention that Jarrett Allen is out.

in this game seven. Then you talk about Max Struz. He had a few three pointers that we knew he needed to get for thisဣ series to ꧑get going. Sam Merrill, huge minutes in the second quarter, huge two, two point, two, three pointers. He was the only person to make three pointers in the entire first half. And then in the third quarter, Max Struz in like the first six minutes said, hmm, I can do that.

Chris Fedor (24:53.886)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (25:07.422)

Mmm.

Ethan Sands (25:13.485)

And then knocked down a couple of three -pointers of his own to bring that total to four and then they kept on going🌌 from there You look at Darius Garland Darius Garland didn’t have a great first half Darius Garland didn’t have a great first three quarters if we’re being really honest He had the opposite of what he did the other day He had three good quarters in the other game and today he had three bad quarters and a good fourth quarter That’s how the how it

Chris Fedor (25:33.086)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (25:42.253)

slice sometimes it just happens like that but and then Isaac Okoro you talk about defensive prowess you talk about the challenge of guarding Paulo Bencaro we can all agree Paulo Bencaro is going to be a monster in this league in the few in the next few years but I t꧃hink you can look down this list we talked about everybody stepping up who do y ‘all think stepped up in the biggest moment for this Cavs team in game s🃏even?

Jimmy, I’ma let you start.

Jimmy Watkins (26:16.442)

In game seven? Okay.

Chris Fedor (26:19.422)

I mean, you’re writing about him, I would think 𒐪that you would have your answer, right?

Jimmy Watkins (26:22.81)

I’m thinki🎀ng bigger picture. I mean, I think Evan, I want to make an Evan Mobley point, but yes, the fortitude that Karras showed after get like nine points in three playoff games and then coming and again, as I said earlier, like studying a sinking shi🔥p really in the first part of that game when he got inserted in the game. In a point where like,

Chris Fedor (26:28.19)

Okay.

Chris Fedor (26:45.79)

Hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (26:53.274)

They, not because JB Bickerstaff was like, you know what, it’s Karras time. Like it’s because Darius Garland and Max Deuce were in foul trouble for a lot of that first half. So it was kind of out of n♊ecessity. They al🌞most, Karras was going to get run anyways, but it was almost out of necessity. And then weirdly those circumstances kind of played to Karras as benefit because the part of the rub for Karras, not.

Chris Fedor (27:01.822)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (27:20.602)

Part of the, the rub of his existence, honestly, this is the tricky part about his fit on this team is that he likes to be on the ball and the♌ Cavs, two best offensive players also like to be on the ball and he’s usually sharing the court with one of them. So the fact that he got a little bit of early run because Darius we🐲nt to the, to the bench might’ve helped kickstart him a little bit, get a few more on ball opportunities. I think.

thꦕought and I think it will be interesting going forward that JB Bikerstaff said after the game that he blamed himself a little bit for some of Karras’ struggles in this series. And then when I asked Karraꦍs about that and what could be done to jumpstart his rhythm or whatever you want to call it a little sooner, he just said, play me more. It’s like, okay.

Chris Fedor (28:14.366)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (28:15.738)

but it’s kind of a chicken or the egg situation cares where it’s like, you need to play more to produce, but you need to produce to play more. You know what I mean? So I think the answer for him is probably do some more stuff that JB Bickerstaff likes besides being on the ball, right? Like lock in on defense, that’ll help 𝓡you out. That’ll get you more touches. But also I want to make a bigger picture every moment, every mobile point because...

Chris Fedor (28:38.75)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (28:45.146)

I think over the course of seven games, he was probably the second most valuable player on the team. Even considering the great five games stint that Jar🐈rett Allen gave in this series, the Cavs like O꧒rlando’s identity was hampered by Evan Mobley in this series. And he would, he is like, again, another situation where he was a great defensive player last year.

Chris Fedor (29:06.11)

Right. That’s correct.

Jimmy Watkins (29:14.938)

He was what, third in defensive player of the year voting last year. I just don’t know if he would have handled the repeated beatings that the Magic give people at the rim as well last year as he did this year. I mean, they are relentless. They challenge you all the time and in multiple, like they were, I have questionﷺs about how much of this was,

Chris Fedor (29:19.422)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (29:44.314)

them trying to test Evan’s physicality and how much of this was Wendell Carter𝐆 maybe going a little bit off the reservation sometimes, but like Wendell Carter tried him a couple of times today and Evan Mobley said, no, I’m not going to have that. Offensively, not still not where you want to be particularly with the, what was it? Six turnovers and some of them were ugly. That last one in the fourth quarter when he threw it away after a rebound was ugly. It’s a good summation of where Evan Mobley is right now though. Like he is.

Chris Fedor (29:50.75)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (30:05.054)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (30:14.394)

defensively everything you could ever want even if offensively they’ll leave something to be🦂 desired and because Defenses half the game, but people don’t see it that way. I think the offensive Shortcomings maybe get highlighted a little bit more, but I think we need to spend more time I Mean we I think we do we as in us three but like as a Cavs viewing public We need to spend more time recognizing how special that guy is

Chris Fedor (30:40.67)

That’s right. That’s right. That’s the thing that I was going to say, Jimmy. And I think you said it well. Sure. He is still developing on the offensive end and he has a ways to go on the offensive end. He’s also only 22 years old. He’s been with this organization for three years and he’s been in the pla꧅yoffs twice because he makes, and it’s not just him, right? It’s a team thing, but

Part of the reason why they’ve been in the pꦛlayoffs two💟 out of the three years that Evan Mobley’s been in the NBA is because he makes such a possession to possession impact on the defensive end of the floor. And I just think so much of this when it comes to young players, so many people focus so much of their attention on what a guy can’t do. And it means they miss what a guy can do.

and the things that he can do on defense, if we’re being totally honest, the things that he can 𝐆do on a possession to possession basisꦜ on the defensive end of the floor, you can count on one hand the number of guys that can do those things. And the category of guys that can wreck a game plan defensively, it’s like Rudy Gobert, Victor Wemba Nyama, Anthony Davis, like,

All of those guys that are perennially going to perennially... jeez, tough for me to say. That are going to be in the defensive player of the year conversation every single season. Like, Evan is in that categꦛory. And, you know, I had a🍷 bunch of people sending me some tweets that said JJ Reddick and Doris Burke were both talking about Evan and they were referring to him as an excellent player that has high value.

based on what he does as a rebounder and a defender. And yes, I think the Cavs want him to evolve more as an offensive threat. I think it wo💦uld obviously raise the ceiling of th🍸is team offensively and it would make it a lot easier to continue forward with the Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley thing if he becomes a better, more polished, more diverse offensive player. In the meantime, the things that he does defensively and from a rebounding standpoint,

Chris Fedor (33:00.222)

um, help the Cavs w🌼in games. And I’ve said this since he w🐲as drafted. Evan Mobley is the kind of guy where production doesn’t always tell the entire story. It’s about impact. And few guys on this roster find a way to consistently impact winning at the level that Evan does. And I just don’t think that should go overlooked despite the fact that, yeah, sometimes he’s soft with the basketball and he turns it over.

Sometimes he’s got stone hands and he can’t catch the pocket passes from Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell Yes, sometimes he is going to get outmuscled and sometimes he is going to be physically overmatched especially if he has to shift to center but like That shou🌃ldn’t take away from all of the brilliance that that he provides Especially on the defensive end of the floor like just look at Paulo’s numbers in this series in a head -to -head matchup against Evan

Jimmy Watkins (33:55.77)

And it’s not yes.

Chris Fedor (33:59.934)

That’s Paulo Banquerꦬo, who a lot of people think could potentially be the face of the league one day. And yeah, Paulo’s stil📖l a young player and he’s going through growing pains on the playoff stage. But for Evan to be able to match up with him and match up with Wendell Carter Jr. and be able to guard Franz Wagner and at times be able to be a weak side help defender and at times be able to be a primary rim protector.

Like that’s a lot of responsibilities baked iꦉnto a 22 year old kid. And he handled himself well enough in this series for the Cavs.

Jimmy Watkins (34:37.242)

Not just the blocks either. Five blocks today, what 21 for the series, I think, which was the most by anyone in the first round. Yeah, 21, which was most by anyone in the first round. Granted, no one else played seven games, but still I believe he was ahead by 10 blocks. So I think he would have, if we could account that for per game, I think it would have wor𒀰ked. But it’s not just the blocks. It’s like, it’s just so noticeable when Paolo goes up, even when he’s...

Chris Fedor (34:42.654)

Yeah, five in game six.

Chris Fedor (34:55.326)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (35:06.106)

When Palo’s mostly won the fight against whoever’s guarding him, he gets to the rim. It’s so different when he attacks Evan at🐷 the rim than when he attacks everyone 🔥else. And today there was one play and there was many plays during the series like this, but today there was one play where Palo took a power dribble, started to look at the rim, saw Evan there and said, no, I’m all right. I’ll try and find a different shot. That’s the last level of defensive dominance is guys aren’t even trying you anymore. And he’s already there.

Chris Fedor (35:09.31)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (35:36.35)

Thisܫ was Evan Mobley♐ in the matchup against Palo and understanding that NBA .com matchup stuff can be pretty wonky. Right. But I think we have to point this out. Evan Mobley against Palo Banquero. Banquero was 16 of 50 from the field, 32%. Four of 13 from three point range, 31%. And he had...

Ethan Sands (35:36.717)

Yep.

Chris Fedor (36:05.31)

Nine turnovers in his matchup minutes against Evan Mobley. Wendell Carter Jr., when Evan Mobley had to switch over to him, especially with Jarꦺrett Allen missing the final three games of the series, Wendell Carter Jr. scored a grand total of 18 points against꧑ Evan Mobley on 8 of 23 from the field, 34 .8%, and 2 of 9 from three point range, 22%.

Like, that is some incredible high level defense against some pretty important players for the 🎉Magic. I mean, Carter Jr. was a guy who, going into the starting lineup following Game 2, flipped the series momentarily. And we all know just how great Paolo Banquero is. The majority of Paolo’s production in this series came against guys not named Evan Mo.

Jimmy Watkins (36:56.602)

And oh, by the way, Ev🔴an Mobley made the game winning block in game five, game sealing block. Who knows what happens if that game goes to overtimeও. But we will never know because Evan Mobley, Evan Mobley pinned that against the glass.

Chris Fedor (37:00.478)

Right. Right. Can’t forget.

Ethan Sands (37:11.149)

And so I think Evan Mobley has shown a lot defensively since he’s been here. Like we can all agree on that part. And I want to, I want to go back to what Jimmy was talking about. I tried to hop in, but then y ‘all were cooking. I could not interrupt, but Jimmy wa🐭s talking about Karris LaVert and playing alongside Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. And there was a point in today’s game in game seven where,

Donovan Mitchell won, who was also on a hobbled knee and potentially didn’t want to bring the ball up this possession. But Keris LaVert was getting a little bit hotter and Donovan just said, no, you take it and run the offense and go get a bucket. Like Donovan wasn’t even past half court yet and he already given the ball up to Keris to bring it up and get the actions moving and do whatever. And Keris went 🥃to the bucket and got it to the cu🍌p. So.

Chris Fedor (37:53.662)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (38:08.269)

I think that’s something that I wanted to add in for that conversation as well as talking ab🌞out Evan Mobley in the sense of being a quote unquote unicorn. We’ve gotten into a lot of cliches throughout this series, that being one of them. And I feel like he’s a guy quite like Jarrett Allen, who’s quiet, doesn’t have this huge overroaring personality that you really don’t.

Like he is a unicorn because he’s quiet, mysterious, and you don’t know what’s going on in his head. Like that’s what that’s what a unicorn really is. It’s a rare breed. But I remember to close the gate, the Cavaliers had the game won. There’s no reason to be going hard on defense or whatever. But it’s Evan Moe. He’s in the paint. He says, no, 𒉰there are thirty seven point one seconds left on the clock.

Chris Fedor (38:59.902)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (39:07.629)

I’m gonna block Palo Banquero. Okay, go ahead, get the rebound. Franz Wagner goes up, misses the layup because Evan’s standing there. I believe Franz Wagner was one of 11 on the night. And then Jonathan Isaac got the offensive rebound. Evan Mobley’s still in there and he just shovels it out to Karis Laverte🏅 and they get the ball back to end the game. Like three different attempts at the cup.

for the Orlando Magic to end the game. And the reaction that Evan Mobley had to his stellar defensive stop was a hand clap. One hand clap. And everybody on the bench is screaming and there’s the get that weak stuf♏f out of here coming from the PA system. Like 💫it’s just an understanding of.

Chris Fedor (39:53.022)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (40:02.221)

what he is able to bring. And I read, like I said earlier, I’d be reading all this stuff throughout the game. And Evan Mobley was like, people were talking about trade Evan Mobley, get ready Evan Mobley. He’s not doing anything offensively. Li🤡ke we’ve said on this podcast a number of times, there’s moreꩵ to it than just offense. And Evan Mobley is a valuable piece of this core and of this team. And not only to mention, based on the unicorn conversation, cause I wrote about that for tomorrow.

Evan Mobley got one unicorn horn for his own when he took Jalen Suggs’ from the Orlando Magic. And next up, if he plays, is Christophe Prasinghas. So if you don’t know, Jalen Suggs is a part of Unicorn Fam, which is like a variation of Jelly Fam and Jam Fam or whatever. It’s like a high school phenom thing that started in like years ago. And then o💯bviously, we were talking before the podcast.

Kristaps Porzingis might be the OG basketball u♛nicorn i𝔉n the league. So that’s a whole different thing. But.

Chris Fedor (41:06.142)

Mm -hmm. You lost me on the Jalen Suggs thing♏, but I will... Right, right. Tha♛t’s okay. The cool kids might know about it.

Jimmy Watkins (41:09.978)

Yeah, I💯 still don’t know what’s happening wi🌠th Jalen Suggs and unicorns.

Ethan Sands (41:13.965)

So no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cause Chris, you said the new kids might know. No, Chris, so let me explain it to you cause you want this to be fresh and clean a🌄nd up to date. We’re going to keep you guys hip now. So Jalen Green wasꦦ called a unicorn in high school. And obviously Jalen Green has a more of a personality than most people. So he was getting social media.

Chris Fedor (41:27.998)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (41:42.605)

P🐟latform this is when over time and house of highlights and all this stuff were like doing feature♔s on him and because he was the number one ESPN ranked player in the draft class or the Recruiting recruiting class of 2020. So he was blowing up doing that and jelly fam Had already became a thing which is like doing pretty layups around the basket Kyrie esque moves I guess and then

Everybody was like, oh this is blowing up. So we want to create our own thing slam fam, which I believe was created by Zion Williamson Became a thing and then because Jalen Green of the Houston Rockets was called a unicorn He was lওike, I’m a be I’m a create unicorn fam and I went and did some digging to find out who was a part of Unicorn fam and Jalen Suggs was on that list

Chris Fedor (42:40.158)

Okay.

Ethan Sands (42:40.909)

because Jaylen Suss wa🐟s number six in the ESPN 2020 rankings for high school recruits. And they be doing the little unicorn motion or wha💯tever when they do a play or they did when they were in high school at least.

Chris Fedor (42:46.782)

Yeah.

Chris Fedor (42:57.118)

Well, let’s just say I didn’t have this angle of the conversation on my bingo card for this podcast, but you know, I’ll defer to you on that one, Ethan. You’re a little bit🍨 more hip than me. You’re a little bit more cool. I’m just going to throw some more Evan Mobley stats at you. How about that? In the 2024 NBA Playoffs so far, and Jimmy, you brought this up a little bit in terms of his blocks, contested shots.

Ethan Sands (43:14.669)

Step me down, step me down.

Chris Fedor (43:25.534)

Evan Mobley 102. The next closest to 🐬Evan🅠 Mobley is Brooke Lopez at 66.

Behind him, 🙈Isaiah Hartenstein and Joel Embiid at 65. And then in terms of loose balls recovered, Josh Hart has 13 because he’s just ridiculous. E💃van Mobley, 12.

Jimmy Watkins (43:56.762)

That’s, that’s staggering. Even more staggering. I looked this up earlier today and I don’t think it included, I’m trying to remember about the next series last year, but Ebeneboi has fouled ou🌼t twice in his career, which is just like for♚ a guy, for a guy who, again, contest that many shots and is challenged that often. It’s everything. It’s like the perfect combination of defender, right? Like.

Chris Fedor (44:09.694)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (44:25.946)

Incredible, incredible at blocking shots when the opportunity is presented, knows how to defend without, uh, without fouling when he, when he needs to the verticality, he is a master of it. You just can’t, you can’t say, and I’m still a little, I’m not gonna lie. I’m still tripping up a little bit over the un🎃icorn fam thing. I don’t quiဣte understand it, but Evan Mobley deserves to be under whatever unicorn category we are creating here on defense. Yes.

Chris Fedor (44:52.51)

Yes, on defense. Correct.

Ethan Sands (44:58.413)

I’m sorry that I tripped you up. I apol🌳ogize. I will never be interesting again. Moving back over to game seven, I mean, you talk about what Evan Mobley was d⛄oing. We talked about what Caris Laverte was doing. I think we got to talk about what Sam Merrill did in the second quarter because we had talked about how he could impact the series at the

Chris Fedor (45:00.99)

It’s alright.

It happened.

Chris Fedor (45:16.99)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (45:22.765)

beginning, we talked about how he could be minute getting minutes. We talked about it after game ℱsix, how he should be getting minutes at this point, because of how George Yang was not shooting the ball. They wanted to shoot more threes and things of that nature. At the time, at the time, yes.

Chris Fedor (45:35.582)

And how Karis was playing too, yeah.

Ethan Sands (45:41.933)

Sam Merrill came into the game again with limited minutes and instead of missing his first two shots, he made his first two shots. And that was the differencꦐe for what the Cavs needed one in the second quarter and for him from his role to get extended minutes as well. Chris, I mean, you ca🧔lled it. We talked about it already. We talked about how important this was going to be, but to see it come to fruition.

to see him do that and then also to see him not really get that many minutes in the sec𝓡ond half? What was your thoughts on all of that?

Chris Fedor (46:17.086)

He got, yeah, I mean, he did what the Cavs needed him to do, right? And I think that’s, it’s hard, but that’s Sam Merril🐭l🌌’s role on this team. And we’ve talked about this throughout the entire season. It’s just like,

He is a weapon that you can bring off the bench in certain moments. And it was clear that J .B. Biggerstaff was unhappy with things on the offensive end. They were stagnant. They were bogged down. They had not enough spacing. They had not 🐼enough shooting. They had missed 13 of their first 17 shots to open the game. So they needed to do something to loosen up the Orlando defense. And Sam has the ability to do that. And it helps a lot.

for this offense and it helps ꦺa lot for Sam Merrill’s confidence and it helps a lot for JB Biggerstaff’s faith in Sam when he’s knocking down shot⭕s. That’s a difference. It’s a very, very hard role that Sam is in. I was talking to multiple people close to him about this and for a guy to know, like I’m only gonna get a couple of shots if I don’t make those shots and if I give up a driving layup or if I get beat on defense or something like that, I’m gonna get yanked out of the game.

But fo𒀰r him in a game seven to come in at a time where the Cavs desperately needed an offensive boost, where they desperately needed somebody that could loosen up the defense, he answered the call. And you have to give him a lot of credit for that. I just think he’s going to continue to be in a role because of some of his deficiencies that JB Bickerstaff sees, that JB Bickerstaff recognizes, that JജB Bickerstaff believes Sam Merrill has.

I just think he’s going to be in this role where it’s going to be more on a need basis. What does the game call for? What does the matchup c🔴all for? What lineups are out there for the opposing team where maybe I can get away with him playing? Do I need more offense? Do I need more defense? Like those kinds of things. But in saying all of that, like it is a value to this team.

Chris Fedor (48:33.31)

to have a guy like that, an option like that on the bench that you can go to and he can bring this type of ability. And he only played six seconds in the second half, but part of that was, Karras -Levert was playing well in the second half and Isaac Okoro’s defense was just something that you can take off the floor. And Max Struus wa𒐪s banging threes in the third quarter. He scored 11 points in the third quarter to compliment.

Donovan Mitchell. So it’s just going to continue to be a situational thing. And part of his role is doing what he did in the first half. So when you’re looking at it,🍬 even though he didn’t play in the second half, but six seconds, he did his job for this team. He did the things that make him a valued commodity.

Jimmy Watkins (49:28.986)

First of all, I want to congratulate the subtexters on their Sam Merrill victory lap. It’s a big moment for them. I’m not so convinced that JB Bickerstaff isn’t subscribed after watching how the rotations have unfolded in this series over the course of seven games. Who knows? If so, we appreciate you, JB, always for support𝔉ing the podcast and all of our endeavors. But to the Sam Merrill point,

Yes, he’s going to be a bit guy have a bit role pretty much no mattꦇer what in high level playoff series because he’s such a blinking target on the defens💧ive end. But I do think that like it cannot be overstated. One, how hard it was for him to come through in this situation with this on this stage with this kind of pressure with the limited reps that he’s had and.

As a product of that, like how much credibility you earn both with your teammates and I would 💟think with the coaching staff for doing so. Like what Sam Merrill did today does not mean that Sam Merrill is now the eighth man by any means, but it does make JB Bickerstaff more willing to break class, break the Sam Merrill glass in case of emergency in the Celtic series. If things get a little bit stagnant offensively by the way.

not to step on our Celtics preview. That’s probably going to happen a couple of times because Boston’s defense is also really freaking good and switchy. And you are going to, I sᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚᩚ⁤⁤⁤⁤ᩚ⁤⁤⁤⁤ᩚ⁤⁤⁤⁤ᩚ𒀱ᩚᩚᩚhould have made this point with Karas earlier, the Cavs are going to need as many different sources of offensive creation as they can possi💟bly get against that team because there just aren’t any weak spots, particularly with perimeter defenders, at least in the starting lineup for the Celtics, right? Like Drew Holliday,

Chris Fedor (51:03.358)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (51:25.562)

is all world defender. Derek, Derek, Derek White is an all world defender. Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown, they got the goods, man. And then Al Horford will like, he’s getting up there and we’ll see about poor Zingus. But this is, this is a big moment for Sam Merrill that I think could port, portend, I think that’s 𒅌the word other bigish moments.

Chris Fedor (51:45.79)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so like the other thing that I🔥 think we have to bring up is that...

You know, whether JB Bickerstaff is right or wrong, and I think it’s up for debate, in his view of Sam Merrill, in hisꦍ usage of Sam Merrill, it’s consistent, right? It’s inconsistent in terms of how many minut♒es he gets per game, but the viewpoint of this coaching staff and JB in particular of Sam Merrill is consistent. And it’s basically, if you’re going to make shots for us,

you’re going to continue to play. If y𒆙ou’re going to be a plus for us on the offensive end to offset some of the questions that we have about you defensively, to offset some of the limitations that we have defensively when you’re in the game, then we’re going to continue to roll with you. Like, that is his role. Right or wrong, that is his role. Right or wrong, JB Biggers -Saff’s going to have a longer leash for Max Drews.

Right or wrong, he’s going to have a longer leash for Karis Levert. Right or wrong, he’s going to have a longer leash for Isaac Okoro. It doesn’t mean that JB doesn’t have a plan for Sam. There♔ is a plan in place for Sam. I🦋t’s just not one that this fanbase is willing to accept.

Ethan Sands (53:11.853)

I think you know what the funniest thing was is we can talk about the shot making of Sam Mero and how the arena probably erupted almost as loud as I had heard it when he made his second one this tonight. But JB Bickerstaff’s favorite point of Sa♏m Mero’s game tonight was when he took a charge. Was when he took a charge. I looked down at the sidelin🐻e and JB Bickerstaff is almost at half court like,

Chris Fedor (53:25.502)

Thank you.

Chris Fedor (53:32.766)

You took a charge. Yes.

Chris Fedor (53:41.534)

Yes.

Ethan Sands (53:41.837)

in on the court trying to get to Sam Merrill pointing at him and clapping it up and trying to get him hyped up knowing how big of a defensive st𓆏op it was. But J .U. Biggestad as a defensive coach and also knowing Sam Merrill’s liabilities on the defensive end, he said, you did that. You did that. You did that. Good job. And I thought it was hilarious just watching him and seeing how he reacted to that. But.

Chris Fedor (54:09.63)

Yes.

Ethan Sands (54:11.021)

Is there anything left from this game that 🎀you want to touch on before we wrap up today’s podcast? Chris, Jimmy.

Jimmy Watkins (54:18.01)

I do real quick because ജwe’re talking about JB and Sam right now.🌸 I just wanted to point out and I showed like there’s a massive point to be made here, but while we’re talking about, uh, figures in this series who took a step, I thought JB, I mean, I honestly don’t know what I think JB played 10 guys in the first half, which again is part the cat, like part of reflection of.

how li♊ttle he trusts everybody to start this game, right? But also like part of like, at some point you just gotta pick something and go with it. Like I might say a little lack of conviction. And in the second half, once he found, I mean, it helped that Max Struce and Keris Levert started playing really well. He pl💫ayed six dudes. I mean, Trist had played what, three minutes? But like, I think that there was...

Chris Fedor (54:51.198)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (55:16.09)

I don’t know if, okay, let me ask that. I wonder if th🦋ere was more room for those kind of shortened rotatio🍬ns earlier in the series or going forward against Boston.

Ethan Sands (55:28.973)

Can I ask a question to Chris before we do this? Because I know that’s that I understand where you’🧸re coming from🀅 with that, Jimmy. And I think one of the athletic guys asked a question during J .B. Bickerstad’s press conference was like, where did you come up with that rotation? Because there was a rotation to start the second quarter, I believe, that didn’t work one and two was just.

Chris Fedor (55:46.11)

Mm.

Chris Fedor (55:51.55)

That did not work.

Ethan Sands (55:56.237)

mesh of players that I ܫdon’t think we’ve seen on the court before and jb bigger said was like I don’t think I’ve used that one before so What was your thought Chris one on the?

JB Biggerstav being willing to do something like that and then snatching it back when he realized that tha✨t wasn’t working.

Chris Fedor (56:20.638)

I don’t know if it’s allowed in this town to praise J .B. Bickerstaff in any kind of way, right? I get criticized all the time for trying to justify some of his decisions or provide reasons for some of his decisions. Right, right♏. I thought he had a good game overall as a coach. That doesn’t mean that he’s perfect.

Jimmy Watkins (56:36.474)

Just see the logic. See the logic.

Chris Fedor (56:48.19)

And it doesn’t mean that he’s going to go into this series against Boston and be the better tactician than Joe Mazzullo. And it doesn’t mean th👍at JB all of the sudden, like all of the flaws that he has showed throughout his coaching tenure are corrected and everything is fine. But I thought today for game seven, his first ever game seven as a head coach, I thought he pushed the right buttons for the most part.

He put a Coro back in the starting lineup for Marcus Morris Sr. He we🍰nt to Sam Merrill early and stuck with him. He was willing to do that. He made a tough decision to pull Darius Garland for Karis LaVert early in the third quarter. That wasn’t all fault trouble. That was effectiveness. And it happened about two minutes earlier than it usually does. It would have happened two minutes earlier than the two minutes that it did. But there was no stoppage in play at that point. Like, Karis was waiting at the scorers table.

to take the place of Darius Garland because, you know, he was just off to a terrible start in the second half. So he went away from Darius for Carys. He went to the whole look of 🧔Donovan Mitchell running the show with three wings and one big, something that obviously worked for them at th꧃e time that Darius Garland and Evan Mobley were missing simultaneously when they went on that huge run to flip their season.

He yanked George Niang after three minutes and then didn’t play him at all in the second half. Like, yeah, it’s fair to wonder why did JB use Niang in the first place, but he recognized that he wasn’t effective. He pulled him out of the game and he didn’t use him in the second half. And Niang is a key piece of this rotation. Niang is a big reason why the Cavs got the f♌our seed in the Eastern Conference. I thought JB picked the right moments to call on Tristan Thompson.

Allowing Evan Mobley to get enough of a rest o💧n the bench and then keep him fresh for the end of the game. So he wasn’t completely gassed out late. So he didn’t look completely exhausted and ineffective late in the game. Like he did in game six. Um, he obviously made halftime adjustments that worked. Like we’re going to sit here and say, like when the Cavs crumble in the second half on the road against Orlando, that that’s a reflection of JB and his lack of adjustments. And if we’re going to sit here and say that.

Chris Fedor (59:12.51)

Um, you know, he’s not quick enough to make certain decisions on the fly and stuff like tha༒t. If they have a successful have like they did today, um, a second half where they outscored Orla🌄ndo 63 to 41. Like, are we only going to say that that’s player driven? Are we only going to say that that’s execution driven? Are we just going to ignore potential adjustments that he made in the second half because it’s not convenient to the narrative?

63 to 41 guys in the second half aga𝐆inst Orlando held them to four of 24 from the field in the third quarter 15 points in the third quarter JB is the guy responsible for the defensive game plan, right? JB is the guy responsible for the defensive principles JB is the guy who has built this entire organization on the defensive end of the floor and that in large part is what led to the game seven win.

Are we not going to give him credit for that? Um, he also, like you said, Ethan, he unveiled and was wilಞling to go to a five man lineup that hadn’t seen the court together at any point this season. And when it didn’t work, um, he, he, he took it away. So.

I don’t know, it doesn’t mean that he was perfect and it doesn’t mean that h💯e did everything right and his coach’s challenge was completely bizarre and emotionally driven and he’s got to be better when it comes to that but you know for all the heat that he has taken and the boost that he got in pregame introductions you know I thought he pushed some pretty smart right buttons in this game seven and he most certainly didn’t seem overmatched from a coaching chess match situation.

Ethan Sands (01:00:58.765)

All right, game seven win. The first time the Cavaliers reached the second round since 2018. Once again, shout out LeBron. And the first time that they reached the second ꦦround without LeBron James since 1993. So, the biggest thing.

Jimmy Watkins (01:01:19.162)

Shout out Mark Price.

Ethan Sands (01:01:22.061)

You just had to, didn’t you? Alright.

Chris Fedor (01:01:26.11)

Yeah, all these other guys. There was another key moment in this game too, guys, that I don’t think can go overlooked here either. And it’s what I wrote about for clevelan🅰d .com. Donovan Mitchell’s decision in the midst of an epic game seven performance for him to pass the ball to Darius Garland, like that was a calculated thing. And it reminded me a little bit, and again,

When you bring up comparisons to things, it’s not always going to be apples to apples. It’s not going to be the p🦹erfect comparison. I don’t know that there is a perfect comparison, but there was a momen🍷t early on in the, in the 2014 season when LeBron James came back and the Cavs built their big three of LeBron, Kyrie and Kevin Love. And during that game, LeBron purposely just stood in the corner.

and he just let Kyrie Irving dribble himself into failure. And he did it on purpose b👍ecause he was teaching Ky💟rie a lesson and because he was trying to break the bad habits that Kyrie had from early in his career where he was trying to do everything on his own. Again, this is a different kind of situation. These are different players. But Donovan Mitchell to me,

passing up a shot at the rim to෴ get Darius Garland in open three. That was purposeful. That was about the bigger picture. Just like LeBron and what he was doing, he was willing to sacrifice a win on the road because of the bigger picture. Donovan Mitchell, in a game where he could have scored 40 again, he was looking at the bigger꧙ picture and he was saying to himself, I’m gonna empower my teammate. I’m gonna uplift my teammate.

He recognized how much Darius needed that moment and Donovan recognized how much the franchise needed Darius to have that momen♔t. And it wasn’t just worth three points to me. And it wasn’t just the typical timeout inducing bucket. It was more than that. It was Donovan saying, look, if we’re going to make a deep postseason run, if we’re going to have a shot at Boston, any k﷽ind of shot whatsoever against Boston.

Chris Fedor (01:03:44.318)

If we’re going to evolve as this team that we need to be, if I’m going to grow alongside Darius Garland and this team is going to grow with me and Darius as, you know, the dynamic backcourt, the two really, really important drivers of this offense, I can’t do it all by myself. Like I need that guy as my sidekick, my sidekick that can handle game seven, my sidekick that can hanไdle the pressure of the playoffs.

my sidekick that can go on the road with me to TD garden and maybe find a way to be competitive against the Celtics in a house of horrors. To me, like Donovan learned from the end of game six on the road against Orlando, he scored 50 guys and it wasn’t enough because he just didn’t trust his teammates enough. He had oppor🧸tunities to pass the ball to Evan Mobley, chose not to, had opportunities to pass the ball to Darius Garland, chose not to.

And I don’t think it was an epiphany by any means. Donovan talked about it coming ꧂into this postseason. I can’t do it all by myself. It’s got to be a team thing. But for him to go out in game six and score 22 straight points starting in the third quarter carrying over all the way to the fourth quarter scoring 50 in that game and having it be a loss for him, like...

I think that was a situation whe𒐪re it just became even more evident that maybe in these late game situations, I have to approach it a little bit differently. And for him, it was really, really important to get Darius that wide open three point shot. Not because of today’s game against Orlando specifically, but because of what’s going to be required to beat a team the caliber of the Boston Celtics.

Jimmy Watkins (01:05:34.042)

Okay. I’m glad you brought that up because there’s, I think there’s a lot there. I’m going to start with the Donovan end of it and what you said about the 50 point game. So the, we can♚ tie JB in here too, actually, because a lot was made after game six about why wasn’t JB doing more to get the offense movไing, right? It’s just Donovan and four guys out there. I’m just spit balling here.

Chris Fedor (01:05:58.014)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (01:06:03.386)

What if Donovan likes it that way sometimes? What if when a star player has it going, he doesn’t feel like he needs a lot more than just give me the ball and get out of the way until of course that ꧒stops working. But this, I think ღthis is kind of a, this is a lesson that every great player has to go through. It’s, it’s, we’ve kind of lost.

Chris Fedor (01:06:05.886)

Mmm.

Chris Fedor (01:06:19.71)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (01:06:32.89)

the moniker and the archetype of the true point guard over the years, but it’s like every superstar kind of has to have some of those traits now, like lead ball, primary ball handler, whatever. The guy who is going to have be running your offense when the game really matters needs to have some of those same traits. And what you’re talking about with what D𓆏onovan did for Darius today, like that’s some Steve Nash, Andre Miller. I’m trying to think of anotౠher classic point guard, John Stockton type stuff right there.

Chris Fedor (01:07:01.406)

LeBron J♏ames is not a classic point guard,✤ but he did it. Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (01:07:02.746)

Sure, LeBron, for sure, exactl🦩y. He’s more of the modern, him and Luka Dantic are more of like the modern version of that where like no one would call you like a cookie cutter point guard, but you still have all of the intangibles that a point, that a true point guard back in the day would require. So Donovan said, this guy’s out of sorts, out of rhythm, he needs a shot. My...

Chris Fedor (01:07:09.598)

Yeah.

Chris Fedor (01:07:15.07)

Yeah, sure. Sure.

Chris Fedor (01:07:27.39)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (01:07:29.722)

You know, everyone, everyone has a dad who watches a lot of basketball who will tell you that we don’t have point guards who know when guys need a shot anymore, who know when guys need a touch, right? Donova🐻n Mitchell knew Darius Garland needed a touch. That’s really important. That’s really important. It’s important that Darius Garland made that shot. The other side of that coin is it’s a little problematic that Donovan Mitchell felt that way about Darius Garland in that moment. Like,

Chris Fedor (01:07:47.774)

Yes.

Jimmy Watkins (01:08:00.73)

I love that it happened. I lov♔e that he got Darius the shot. It doesn’t speak super highly of where we are with the Darius Garland experience right now. It doesn’t speak super highly of how he handled the game seven to that point or the playof♛fs to this point. Although I thought he was obviously really good in the first quarter of game five and for parts of game six, but like, it just feels like that when...

Chris Fedor (01:08:03.806)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (01:08:29.434)

when a guy like that feels the need to, I’m gonna say, breathe some confidence into you, suggests to me that you might be lacking a little bit. And I don’t know, I think we can all hope that that, maybe that moment can flip a switch for D꧙arius and he’s ready for the Boston series, completely different guy. But I think it also might tell me that he’s kind of in a fragile place right now and we might not be done.

Chris Fedor (01:08:36.766)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (01:08:45.726)

Mm -hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (01:08:59.226)

with the struggles.

Ethan Sands (01:09:01.229)

I think that this is an interesting topic and I wrote about this for cleveland .com tomorrow as well talking about more so the Darius Garland has talked about all s♎eason ✱how he’s played against guys he considers his brothers. Big brother, little brother, whatever it may be. Donovan Mitchell is his big brother and there’s nobody that can speak life into you like your big brother.

Chris Fedor (01:09:01.566)

I think.

Ethan Sands (01:09:29.613)

And there’s nobody that can tell you what you need in situations like your big brother. And Darius Garland being the little brother, Donovan Mitchell said this too. There’s nobody that talks smack🌳 to you or tells you that you need to do something or up your game like you𒁃r little brother does either. So I think it’s, I understand what you’re saying, Jimmy, with being careful with that. But when you’re not having the game that you’re having, when you’re supposed to be this

Chris Fedor (01:09:29.79)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (01:09:58.669)

Max Dio player and you hear the boos and you hear and you’re still a young guy. You’re still 24 years old and you’re hearing all of this these things it can weigh on you and your performance also how you hold yourself to a higher standard can come into play as well. Like we saw Darius Garland not upset but frustrated wi🅺th himself. He went to the bench, smacked the chair and had to get his arm like Donovan Mitchell come over and put his arm around him and be like, hey you don’t suck.

Chris Fedor (01:10:22.174)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (01:10:28.621)

You just gotta be better. And that’s one ofꦅ those things where it’s like, Donovan, again, Donovan knew what he needed. And I think that’s a big thing for their relationship. And we’ve talked about these guys being able to play together, not being able to play together. The fact that they find each other to have꧃ that relationship, that they find each other to be brothers. They come in almost every time they talk about each other, that they say that they love each other.

Chris Fedor (01:10:38.078)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Fedor (01:10:51.486)

Right.

Ethan Sands (01:10:58.189)

Like that’s a dynamic that basketball cannot relate to. And this team has said that about everybody that they’ve played with on this team. And Chris wrote earlier this season, because I had to go back and do some research, about when Donovan Mitchell just went ham on anybody that was trying to scrutinize Darius Garland. And that is the moment for me that I went bac🌌k to that was like, he needed to.

Chris Fedor (01:11:01.63)

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (01:11:26.637)

Go back and say, I don’t care what the doubters say. And he said it today. I don’t care what you think. I don’t care what happened in the first half✃. I don’t care about any about that. Be you.🔥 And for, and I think for your point, Jimmy, for Donovan to say, don’t be somebody else, go be somebody else. He said, be you. That’s like a confidence thing that Donovan Mitchell has in Darius that play can change, but the relationship and the love and the...

Chris Fedor (01:11:34.846)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Sands (01:11:56.237)

Belief is something that cannot be deterred. I༺ don’⛎t think

Jimmy Watkins (01:12:01.882)

I think I just happen to believe, I’m not trying to criticize Darius necessarily. I just happen to believe that confidence is a more fragile th𝄹ing than professional athletes try to convince us that it is. I think that, example from today, Keras Levert says his first bucket is a layup and boom, he’s just, that’s all he needed. He’s off and running. And I believe him when he says that.

I think that it can flip a switch like that quick. I mean, like anyone who’s played basketball knows like you get that first basket to go. It helps. I also believe the inverse is true. Not that any shot you miss can ruin your confidence, but ඣlike if you miss four or five, you start to think about it a little bit. And so that’s, that’s more of what I mean with the Darius thing. ꦯLike he just had a rough day out there today. He’s had a couple of rough days in the playoffs.

So I think he’s thinking about it a little bit sometime🦄s. And Donovan, that was a great moment that ESPN captured on the bench when Donovan was talking to Darius and trying to pick him up. I just think that it’s good that that’s happening from Donovan’s end. It just also tells me something about where Darius is, that Donovan feels he needs to do that.

Chris Fedor (01:13:20.542)

I think from Donovan’s standpoint t🦩hat he recognizes what this organization has done to commit itself to Darius and he recognizes that

If he stays in Cleveland, more tha🥃n l♔ikely, not to say that this couldn’t change, but more than likely, it means, it means Darius is going to be critical to Donovan’s success throughout his prime. Right. And again, that could change. The Cavs could decide to move on from Darius Garland in the off season. They could look at potential trade offers to rejigger the roster and just make it a little bit more balanced.

But this is an organization that committed to Darius. This is an organization that paid Darius. And if Donovan is going to have the success that he wants to have in the playoffs, he’s got to bring Darius along with him. And Darius has to be ready for that leve🐻l of stress, that level of pressure, those expectations, and everything that it’s rꦗequired to make a deep playoff run. And...

And I think Donovan has tried all season long in various ways, behind the scenes, in public, to like𝓡 empower Darius, instill confidence in him and bring him a🎃long with him and say, find a way to get to my level, right? Find a way to be the running mate and not in a negative way in any sort of way, but find a way to be the running mate.

that I know you can be for me. You knoওw what I mean? And Donovan just understands, he might even understand it better than Darius understands it himself, that the level of importance to Darius and Darius’s importance to this franchise. I’m not sure fully that Darius has grasped that.

Ethan Sands (01:15:26.829)

Yeah, I mean, good.

Jimmy Watkins (01:15:26.938)

It’s like a healthy challenge and it’s an investment in Darius now as in fourth quarter as in next round and Darius two years from now if Donovan is going to be here. Honestly, even not. Donovan is also, obviously he’s going to be on basketball. He just want⛦s to see Darius succeed in general. So.

Chris Fedor (01:15:43.966)

Right.

Jimmy Watkins (01:15:55.194)

Yeah, he’s investing in Darius. I just ﷽think 🧸it takes on a little bit of a different tone when you’re struggling.

Ethan Sands (01:16:03.245)

Definitely does and I I think what Chris was saying comes back to the entire point of Darius Garland plays better when he’s having fun when he has joy when he’s running around Smiling with that big ear to ear grin that he has like he is the life of this team when he’s happy when he’s joyful that pushes people 🦩to a different level and Donovan knows that he needs to get that happy go lucky ♕joyful Darius to be there

good, bad, ugly, whatever, you have to be even killed in playing your game. And I think it showed it so in the stupidest way possible when Darius hit that three and then he goes and smacks hands with a fan and Donovan’s there to hug him afterwards. And Darius goes, man, my hand hurts. He smacked my h🌼and hard. And I was like, I was like, are you kidding me? If you just hurt yourself.

because you were celebrating and getting into it. Donovan’s gonna be mad, but he was there to embrace and all the other stuff. And I just see him holding his hand and looking at his hand and I’m like, Darius, you can’t take anything seriously if things are going well for you. And maybe that’s the ignorant bliss or the delusion that he needs to play in at all times, because after thಞat, it was.

Go and all lights, al💫l engines were go for Darius. But we are an hour and 20 minutes into this podcast. And I think we got to wrap up because me and Chris got to catch some flights. I know I still got to pack, but things got to happen. So that will wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to subscribe to Subtext. Y ‘all remember when I said yesterday that Chris might have the insight on Jarrett Allen?

He did. I’m telling you now, you need to subscribe so you can get that inside intel when we get to Boston, because that’🌜s the only way you’re going to get it. But you can do so by going to cleveland .com backslash cabs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. Or you can just sign up for a 14 day free trial. 14 days free during the playoffs. That could not be 14 days. So it sounds like a pretty good 🔯bargain to me, but.

Ethan Sands (01:18:24.589)

If you don’t like it, that’s f🐼ine. All you have to do is press text💖 the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy Watkins. So y ‘all be safe. We out.